Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

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Re: Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

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Vince T
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Post by Vince T » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:02 pm

Alrigth, seen the movie.

I'm still kinda overwhelmed. There were many things plain awesome, various points that left me utterly speechless or gasping loudly for everyone to hear.

I grant the movie its sortcomings, unnecessary lengths, bad decisions by certain ppl (ok thats what they're people for) but all in all I think I liked it a lot and find it brings in a very fresh and new take on the saga.

And I'm pleased to say, while it did have some similarities or parallels, it's no TESB 2.0
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Post by Det. Bullock » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:00 am

I saw it some days ago (had to take a ferry to the mainland and sleep there at a hotel), fortunately in english instead of the usual bad dubs of recent blockbusters.
God, I loved it, from Luke Skywalker in "get off my lawn" mode to all the force stuff and even the so-often-reviled casino part manages to be interesting, also it deconstructs some saga tropes in a way that's a bit reminiscent of KOTOR 2 but at the same time it gives a glimmer of hope at the end.

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Post by Mark_Farlander » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:14 pm

I found the duel Luke Skywalker vs Kylo Ren a parody of the lightsaber duels, and paradoxically that's why I liked it.
Of course it has a touch of KOTOR 2, as Det. Bullock said.

However, the scene I liked most is when the Mega-class Star Dreadnought Supremacy is cut by the MC85 Star Cruiser Raddus after this entered hyperspace. This scene completely demolished all the stereotypes of the space battles in Star Wars, and clearly shows how things really work.
I would dare to say that 40 terrestrial years ago only Gene Roddenberry could have inserted such a scene.
By the way, what if the 1st Order had an old fashion Immobilizer 418 Interdictor?

On the other hand, the scene I hated most is Invincible Poe Dameron vs Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought Fulminatrix.
Hope for a rework in a future reference book explaining the Fulminatrix had already damaged shields because it had just fought another battle or something like that.
I don't judge tactics. The Battle is the best and only Judge.

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Post by Vince T » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:09 am

Fulminatrix? Srsly, that‘s the ship‘s name??!?

Well good thing it got blown up XD
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Post by Marcos_Edson » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:55 pm

Mark_Farlander wrote: By the way, what if the 1st Order had an old fashion Immobilizer 418 Interdictor?
Well, if it worked like in the games/Legends, it might have prevented the slicing... :lachtot:
But as shown in Rebels, it seems ships can jump (and thus ram other ships) before being pulled back... :irre:
That doesn't make much sense to me...
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:17 am

When CRV Liberator entered hyperspace, the gravity well projectors were still inactive (or still not at their maximum power); it seems they were fully activated about 0.1 seconds after the jump.
The gravity well projectors of an Immobilizer 418 Interdictor are often kept inactive due to their massive energy drain, which also prevents the Interdictor from using its laser cannons at their optimal fire ratio and makes the Interdictor too slow. The commander of the Interdictor had to make a choice between standard intercepting route and gravity well projectors.
In Empire at War things seem to go in the same way: gravity well projectors activated=less speed and less firepower.
There are 3 Interdictors in X-Wing Alliance: Restrainer (Battle 3 Mission 6), Claw (Battle 4 Mission 4) and Grappler (Battle 6 Mission 4).
They are set to always prevent all the non Imperial crafts within 20 klicks from entering hyperspace, but they are at full stop or moving very slowly (about 10 MGLT) until they withdraw due to the damage suffered.
However, the so-called expanded universe lacks information on how the projectors work.
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Post by The Saxman » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:38 pm

IIRC, even in the old EU there's been more than a few times where ships managed to jump to hyperspace before the Interdictor could get its generators fully powered up, so there's certainly precedent for it.

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Post by Rookie_One1 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:40 pm

Good example there :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qo56K5Bv6U

So in the old EU, it seems that an interdictor needetime for the generator to become fully active. Not sure about the new canon though
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Post by Jaeven » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:26 pm

I don' think the EU was very consistent about the Interdictor. IIRC WEG once tried to come up with an explanation about the physics behind it but it turned out to be a mess.

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Post by Mark_Farlander » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:47 am

Comparing Canon universe and Legends continuity I see there is a huge discrepancy about the date the Immobilizer 418 Interdictors were first manufactured: 14 BBY according to the new Canon universe, 2 BBY according to the old Legends continuity.

By the way, I see we are using a section dedicated to Episode VIII: The Last Jedi to write about a starship class that never appears in this film.
What about opening a new topic about the Immobilizer 418 Interdictor heavy cruiser in the Canon universe?
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Post by Marcos_Edson » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:05 pm

Mark_Farlander wrote:Comparing Canon universe and Legends continuity I see there is a huge discrepancy about the date the Immobilizer 418 Interdictors were first manufactured: 14 BBY according to the new Canon universe, 2 BBY according to the old Legends continuity.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? 2 BBY in new canom since it's introducen on screen in the SW Rebels show... :?
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:34 pm

According to Star Wars Galactic Atlas and Tarkin, which are both Canon, the Immobilizer 418 was fully operational in 14 BBY, and it seems that was the first time it was used in a mission of some relevance. However, we don't actually know if that's the year when it was manufactured.
We are waiting for more canon sources...
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Post by Det. Bullock » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:48 pm

Mark_Farlander wrote:On the other hand, the scene I hated most is Invincible Poe Dameron vs Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought Fulminatrix.
Hope for a rework in a future reference book explaining the Fulminatrix had already damaged shields because it had just fought another battle or something like that.
He activated easy mode so he could destroy the turrets even if the shields were active. :D

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Post by Tuskin » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:41 am

Marcos_Edson wrote:
Mark_Farlander wrote:Comparing Canon universe and Legends continuity I see there is a huge discrepancy about the date the Immobilizer 418 Interdictors were first manufactured: 14 BBY according to the new Canon universe, 2 BBY according to the old Legends continuity.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? 2 BBY in new canom since it's introducen on screen in the SW Rebels show... :?

The one in Rebels was an Interdictor not an Immobilizer, they're separate classes.

The Immobilizer 418 first appeared in the Tarkin novel, which was set in 14 BBY.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Immobili ... iser/Canon
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Interdic ... oyer/Canon

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Post by Mark_Farlander » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:14 am

Det. Bullock wrote: He activated easy mode so he could destroy the turrets even if the shields were active. :D
Poe Dameron's settings during the Evacuation of D'Qar
Difficulty: Easy
Craft Collisions: Yes
Invulnerable: Yes
Unlimited Ammo: No

He forgot to enable Unlimited Ammo, so 8 MG-100 StarFortress SF-17 were necessary to attack the Fulminatrix.
All the bombers destroyed. What a waste!
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Post by WarHawkster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am

TLJ ruined Star Wars forever. Only people that like it have their fanboy glasses on and can't see the glaring flaws in almost every scene in the movie.

The most glaring was a completely pointless chase of the Rebel Cruiser by the First Order. If Hux was worth his salt as a commander he would have micro jumped a few Star Destroyers ahead to cut them off, or called for backup to jump in, in front of the cruiser to cut them off. Or just send every last TIE Fighter (he should have thousands) to just wipe them out. The whole "you have to pull back, we can't support you" line to Kylo doesn't cut the mustard: TIE Fighters are throw away fighters that are used en mass, just send them all. When you have to use a line like that to justify an entire plot point, and thus the entire movie, that is weak, lazy writing. This was laughable, command level incompetence, and not the least bit believable. Hux would have received a swift summary execution if he had to answer to Vader.

Then we have other retarded things like a crazy, dancing Yoda, which if we remember the OT, was a ruse to fool Luke. Did Rian Johnson even watch ESB? Maybe he did, and just didn't grasp what was going on.

Then there's the blue lightsaber showing up again, on force projection Luke. Except this is not enough of a clue to Kylo Ren, who was just witness to it's destruction in a previous scene. Yet he's powerful enough to fool Snoke and kill him.

Why did Luke's mechanical hand disappear with him? Why did they make Chewbacca a vegetarian? Why did they kill our beloved Admiral Akbar, and replace him with the unlikeable Admiral Gender Studies Holdo?

Why was it so important to keep her plan a secret from everyone? Oh right, we needed it to justify a pointless trip to Casino planet for Rose and Finn to have something to do, and we have to take Poe down a notch and make him into a bumbling buffoon because gender equality.

Then there is Luke, completely out of character. In the OT he has a big problem with killing his own father, even after all the bad evil things he'd done as Darth Vader. Even channeling the dark side in the duel at the end of ROTJ, wasn't enough to make him want to kill him. He threw his lightsaber away, and said "nope" to the dark side and the Emperor. His nephew, who did absolutely nothing wrong? No such qualms.

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Post by Vince T » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:40 am

WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
TLJ ruined Star Wars forever. Only people that like it have their fanboy glasses on and can't see the glaring flaws in almost every scene in the movie.

[...]
Congratulations, you are nominated for the first annual Hater Follower Award in the following categories:
- Best "State your own opinion as if it was solid fact" performance
- Best "Belittle everyone who does not share your opinion" performance
- Best "Regurgitate all the criticism that's been floating all over youtube for the past 4 months" performance
GG man, well played!

Oh, did I mention that I find these passionate haters highly entertaining and amusing?
Ah right, I did.
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Post by Darksaber » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:13 pm

Well I quiet enjoyed it, it might not be 100%, but it was entertaining and for 2:30hrs it takes you way from the reality we all live in, plus I thought it was sad when Luke went :(
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Post by WarHawkster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:48 pm

General_Trageton wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:40 am
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
TLJ ruined Star Wars forever. Only people that like it have their fanboy glasses on and can't see the glaring flaws in almost every scene in the movie.

[...]
Congratulations, you are nominated for the first annual Hater Follower Award in the following categories:
- Best "State your own opinion as if it was solid fact" performance
- Best "Belittle everyone who does not share your opinion" performance
- Best "Regurgitate all the criticism that's been floating all over youtube for the past 4 months" performance
GG man, well played!

Oh, did I mention that I find these passionate haters highly entertaining and amusing?
Ah right, I did.
This is not a rebuttal of any of the points I have made. I’ll take this as confirmation that the movie is indefensibly awful.

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Post by Darksaber » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:00 pm

Mine are prescription Fanboy glasses lol
glasses.jpg
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:02 pm

WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am

The most glaring was a completely pointless chase of the Rebel Cruiser by the First Order. If Hux was worth his salt as a commander he would have micro jumped a few Star Destroyers ahead to cut them off, or called for backup to jump in, in front of the cruiser to cut them off.
I could agree with this, but the point is that there are still too few sources about the sectors of the new trilogy, so we don't know if there are any black holes near the Oetchi system.
We also don't know how many starships did the First Order have in that sector.
I'm waiting for further releases.
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am

Or just send every last TIE Fighter (he should have thousands) to just wipe them out. The whole "you have to pull back, we can't support you" line to Kylo doesn't cut the mustard: TIE Fighters are throw away fighters that are used en mass, just send them all.
A very simple question: why did the Devastator fight alone against CRV Tantive IV in Episode 4 A New Hope? Where was the TIE Fighter complement?
Even simpler answer: because while a capital ship is deploying starfighters, it is forced to slow down.

Speed comparison
Imperial I Star Destroyer top speed: 60 MGLT
Imperial I Star Destroyer while deploying fighters: 11 MGLT (can be easily increased to 20 MGLT) X-Wing Alliance sets this speed as the default one.
CR90 Corellian corvette: 81 MGLT

No way the Devastator could have reached CRV Tantive IV if the Imperials had to deploy fighters.
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Post by Darksaber » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Hate to burst your bubble guys, but........ it's not real!
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Post by WarHawkster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:20 pm

Mark_Farlander wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:02 pm
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am

The most glaring was a completely pointless chase of the Rebel Cruiser by the First Order. If Hux was worth his salt as a commander he would have micro jumped a few Star Destroyers ahead to cut them off, or called for backup to jump in, in front of the cruiser to cut them off.
I could agree with this, but the point is that there are still too few sources about the sectors of the new trilogy, so we don't know if there are any black holes near the Oetchi system.
We also don't know how many starships did the First Order have in that sector.
I'm waiting for further releases.
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am

Or just send every last TIE Fighter (he should have thousands) to just wipe them out. The whole "you have to pull back, we can't support you" line to Kylo doesn't cut the mustard: TIE Fighters are throw away fighters that are used en mass, just send them all.
A very simple question: why did the Devastator fight alone against CRV Tantive IV in Episode 4 A New Hope? Where was the TIE Fighter complement?
Even simpler answer: because while a capital ship is deploying starfighters, it is forced to slow down.

Speed comparison
Imperial I Star Destroyer top speed: 60 MGLT
Imperial I Star Destroyer while deploying fighters: 11 MGLT (can be easily increased to 20 MGLT) X-Wing Alliance sets this speed as the default one.
CR90 Corellian corvette: 81 MGLT

No way the Devastator could have reached CRV Tantive IV if the Imperials had to deploy fighters.
There were what? 6 Star Destroyers accompanying the mega star destroyer? Micro jump a few of them out ahead of cruiser, or if that doesn’t work, jump them out of the system, and jump them back in. If Han can plot a jump that close to Starkiller, this should be no issue. They had literally hours upon hours to solve this problem. But decided to do nothing but give chase at sublight, because plot demanded it.

I don’t know what basis you have used to assume an ISD must slow down to deploy star fighters. A non-canon video game? I have no reason to believe this. And it doesn’t matter anyway. Fine slow down, and deploy every last TIE Fighter to wipe them out. Movie over.

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Post by Jaeven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:20 pm

WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am

The most glaring was a completely pointless chase of the Rebel Cruiser by the First Order. If Hux was worth his salt as a commander he would have micro jumped a few Star Destroyers ahead to cut them off, or called for backup to jump in, in front of the cruiser to cut them off. Or just send every last TIE Fighter (he should have thousands) to just wipe them out. The whole "you have to pull back, we can't support you" line to Kylo doesn't cut the mustard: TIE Fighters are throw away fighters that are used en mass, just send them all. When you have to use a line like that to justify an entire plot point, and thus the entire movie, that is weak, lazy writing. This was laughable, command level incompetence, and not the least bit believable. Hux would have received a swift summary execution if he had to answer to Vader.
And as we know from XWA, standard TIE Fighters don't do much against capital ships. Load up XWA, send a bunch of TIE/Fo Fighters against Home one, and see how much they do. Nothing.

As for calling reinforcements, the FO Fleet is currently invading the galaxy, so I would imagine their forces are busy elsewhere. The TIEs that do attack the Resistance Fleet are not throw-away ships. They're TIE/Sf fighters piloted by the First Order's elite special forces. You don't throw away your pilots like that.

The Hux thing is explained in the novel. During the opening battle at D'qar Ackbar has scathing review of Hux's command performance.

And really, the entire OT is full of this. Why doesn't Tarkin launch thousands upon thousands of TIE Fighters at the 30 Rebel ships? Why doesn't the Empire use TIEs on Hoth to destroy the transports? Why doesn't the blockade launch any TIE fighters? I mean, 2 X-wings and a transport against 64 TIE Fighters from an ISD would have crushed them instantly. And don't get me started on the Battle of Endor.
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
Then we have other retarded things like a crazy, dancing Yoda, which if we remember the OT, was a ruse to fool Luke. Did Rian Johnson even watch ESB? Maybe he did, and just didn't grasp what was going on.
Yoda was neither crazy nor was he dancing. If you listen to what he says, he's actually trying to teach Luke something.
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
Why did Luke's mechanical hand disappear with him? Why did they make Chewbacca a vegetarian? Why did they kill our beloved Admiral Akbar, and replace him with the unlikeable Admiral Gender Studies Holdo?
Seriously? We're concerned about a mechanical hand disappearing? And where was Chewbacca a vegetarian? He literally had roasted porg to eat.
Because a commanding officer is on the bridge. The bridge was hit. Where was Ackbar supposed to be at this point? Him not being on the bridge wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever.
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
Why was it so important to keep her plan a secret from everyone? Oh right, we needed it to justify a pointless trip to Casino planet for Rose and Finn to have something to do, and we have to take Poe down a notch and make him into a bumbling buffoon because gender equality.
Because it turns out, she actually was right. What did Poe do when he found out about the plan? Oh right, he launched a mutiny because he thinks he's flawless and knows it all. So what would have happened had she told Poe earlier? He would have had the same meltdown, and send Rose/Finn on their mission anyways. With them failing again, and with DJ betraying the Resistance.

And for all the shit Rey gets for being a Mary Sue, its remarkable how Poe escapes that in TFA, where he literally is the perfect pilot without any flaws. Whereas in TLJ, that is one of the key points. All of the characters make mistakes throughout the movie, and all of them, bar Kylo, learn from them. Compare Poe's attitude at the beginning of the movie to how he acts on the attack on the superlaser. Heck, even Hux learned from his shitshow earlier when he warns Kylo to not get distracted.

As for the last part, what does that even mean? In what world do you watch that movie and go "Hah! Gender equality, PC culture! Gotcha, libs!"
WarHawkster wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am
Then there is Luke, completely out of character. In the OT he has a big problem with killing his own father, even after all the bad evil things he'd done as Darth Vader. Even channeling the dark side in the duel at the end of ROTJ, wasn't enough to make him want to kill him. He threw his lightsaber away, and said "nope" to the dark side and the Emperor. His nephew, who did absolutely nothing wrong? No such qualms.
Luke's behavior is debatable. But I will point again, that he wasn't planning to kill Ben. He said himself it was but a single, quick moment after which he felt unending shame.

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Post by WarHawkster » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:43 pm

I do not accept rationalizations based on video games, or the novels. Movie must stand on its own. If special forces TIEs are not expendable, fine, send the normal ones, they should have thousands. They had enough StarDestroyers present to redeploy to catch the Rebels, but they did nothing.

We only see 1 transport get away without having to evade TIE fighters in ESB, we don’t know whether further transports got away that easily. Tarkin only sent a few TIE Fighters because he believed the Death Star to be impenetrable, and Darth Vader was leading, it was only because of Luke’s force sensitivity that the Death Star was destroyed.

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