Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

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Driftwood
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Post by Driftwood » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:35 pm

Also guys, I think an important thing to note is that we all come from different perspectives here. I psychoanalyze the characters and consider socio-political influences. Even when George Lucas wrote the OT he based many of the concepts, and the PT for that matter, on "recent" human events and social/political/religious/philosophical/military concepts we are familiar with. Who's to say current writers aren't doing the same? Maybe we'll look back in 30 years and go "ah-ah" and it'll all make sense.

Bear in mind, most people who you ask who've seen the movies, including OT, PT, and ST are casual movie goers. They either like the movies or they don't like the movies, perhaps they don't have an opinion at all. They have very minimal emotional, intellectual, or financial investments in the franchise unlike most of us here.

These topics and arguments are entirely subjective to our "tribe" the investments we make here are thus also subjective.

Lets not lose focus that at the end of the day we like Star Wars, and that we all have our own perspectives that when shared overall benefit the community.

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Post by DarHan » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:45 pm

Driftwood wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:32 pm
Either debate, or don't. I'm cool with either. A passive aggressive post, without sharing your views for consideration is awfully pointless and seems awfully "bait-y".
I'll be honest: I do not consider debate a sacrosanct activity and do not feel I owe it to anyone. If the mental energy I can muster well past midnight on a Sunday night only allows me to voice a curt declaration of my complete disapproval of your points, then you shall get that and only that. After all,
Driftwood wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:32 pm
are not all viewpoints and opinions considered here?
Having said that, I'm signing off for the night.
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Driftwood
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Post by Driftwood » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:27 am

DarHan wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:45 pm
Driftwood wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:32 pm
Either debate, or don't. I'm cool with either. A passive aggressive post, without sharing your views for consideration is awfully pointless and seems awfully "bait-y".
I'll be honest: I do not consider debate a sacrosanct activity and do not feel I owe it to anyone. If the mental energy I can muster well past midnight on a Sunday night only allows me to voice a curt declaration of my complete disapproval of your points, then you shall get that and only that. After all,
Driftwood wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:32 pm
are not all viewpoints and opinions considered here?
Having said that, I'm signing off for the night.
Entirely your prerogative sir to not debate any of my points. Though you do rob me of your perspective, which is unfortunate I must say; though your defining your position as "complete disapproval of my points" does leave me with the impression neither one of us is going to make headway in any discussion going forward on these points since you're not saying "I disagree" rather than what I'm understanding as "I don't like your point of view", it comes across as marginally hostile rather than providing constructive criticism. (Not judging here, I get cranky too.)

So respectfully I acknowledge your difference in opinion, and I guess we can leave it at that if you're cool with where we're at.

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Post by Rich C » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:34 am

Driftwood wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:23 pm
Make a good product, people will buy/watch/read/listen/play it.
This.
Driftwood wrote: Admiral Holdo: I haven't read anything with her in it at this point, but even on screen her exhibited appearance and behavior was unlike any military, never mind naval officer I have ever encountered or observed. She isn't believable as a character as presented.
...
Poe acts like I would expect, and I have no complaints about the character thus far as he is one of the few believable ones.
Admiral Purple-Rinse and Edgar Allen Pilot had a marvellous knack for contradicting themselves almost immediately when they spoke to each other. They were an amusing double act in this regard.

They also just magically became friends with no explanation, before she went on her joyride. I was somewhat relieved when she was scattered across the cosmos. :^^:
Driftwood wrote: Kylo is experiencing...
Isn't Kylie just a Vader-wannabe with daddy issues? I really can't see much more to him than that. If there is more to him, you could say it's a bit late in the day to pull it out, now. :/

That seems the biggest issue here; we're 2/3 into a trilogy and nothing much has really happened in terms of meaningful and consequential activity; each part has written it further into a corner, there won't be room in one movie to address all the issues adequately, and any resolution of what little conflict is left is probably going to be at least somewhat convoluted, by necessity.

But J.J. will just lens flare and fanservice over all the cracks now, it's okay. We've got Lando, Wedge, and isn't Palpatine coming back as a haunted action figure? :D
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Post by Tuskin » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:49 pm

Oh boo hoo, there's a female admiral.

Get over yourself, she's a fine character.

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Post by Jaeven » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:35 pm

That's a bad take, and I say that as someone who finds a lot of criticism of the sequels and TLJ in particular ridiculous.

It's perfectly acceptable to not be fond of certain characters. I think there are valid criticisms in regards to Holdo, none of which have to do with her being female.

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Post by Driftwood » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:48 am

Her gender isn't overly important, all of the critique other than some educated speculation in regards to her character aesthetic and implied subliminal messaging, is entirely based on the fact she acts entirely unprofessional as an officer and is never once seen in a military uniform. IRL A female officer would only wear a dress off duty, or in a formal function where dress uniform attire was optional; she looks and acts more like an aristocrat like Mon Mothma (and Mon Mothma had the sense to largely let her military staff DO THEIR JOBS with minimal interference), and if she was presented as a Senator for example her portrayal would have made perfect sense and my complaints would be more "Oh what a typical piece of garbage politician meddling in military business yet again getting people killed like they always do, clearly this is why the Resistance is FFFFF'd right now. But she wasn't, so our observations are entirely valid.

She has no leadership skills, berates her (male) officers like the stereotypical feminist as if they are incompetent children NOT senior staff officers. Her decision making is questionable at best, and again if she's running the show then it's pretty obvious why the Resistance is faring "so well" if this is indicative of her typical competency.

If the role was hypothetically reversed and the character was male and was like this and would get the exact same criteria, except that instead of stunning him, he'd probably have been executed on the spot for incompetence, dereliction of duty, cowardice, and treason and everybody would have no complaints since justice would have been served; the typical extreme response for an extreme scenario.

Have some objectivity Tuskin this isn't the "He man woman hater's club" that you and others seem to be passive aggressively inferring periodically throughout discussions that tangentially bring up female cast or characters. The fact is that much of the critique of the female characters and cast is entirely due to the fact they are playing significant roles (that would be just as heavily criticized if they were men and had the same issues, if not more-so) and are becoming the majority represented on the screen throughout the saga.

You're coming off as being offended of our mostly objective assessments of the female characters and cast, based on production choices from the executive producers, directors, and writers that WE THE FANS WHO HAVE OPINIONS OF OUR OWN take issue with.
I have yet to see a single person who has had an objective analysis on the Holdo character, your statement literally says "Get over yourself, she's a fine character", which translates into "You're wrong, shut up I don't like your opinion." and brooks no further discussion as presented.

If you know something about the character we don't that is provided in off screen material, please share for us to consider and evaluate; our opinions are based on the ON SCREEN PORTRAYAL that we have legitimate reasons to dislike that are predominantly literary in nature. Back up your point of view with your interpretation or facts we may not know about the character so we can all discuss the merits of the character, and presentation, or the lack-there-of.

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Post by Griffin » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:51 am

I never got to the point of picking apart the character's individual flaws in TLJ, I got stuck at... how is the first order paying for all this stuff AND making it within thirty years after Endor... and no one notices? Just the shipyard for the Supremacy would turn heads, let alone the amount of workers and materials needed to make Starkiller Base all at the same time (not to mention the fleet of Resurgent-class Star Destroyers [featuring over 1,500 turbolasers and ion cannons!!??]) and Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnoughts. You need the best designers and scientists for that as well (let us not forget hyperspace tracking, because the Supremacy simply having Interdiction abilities would have been boring, and not allowed Fin and Rose to go on their little mission which ended up only to provide a space to complain about capitalism), and no one leaked any information or was able to escape to explain in person given how flat out incompetent the first order is?

And then there is the Raddus ramming the Supremacy and taking out several Resurgent-class Star Destroyers as well... Why didn't the Rebellion try this on the 2nd death star with mon cal cruisers on autopilot aimed right at the center of the death star... and if this hyperspace ramming is a tactic, the whole idea of star bases, or any capital ships sticking around to fight goes down the toilet as we would just see a constant stream of star fighter sized drones doing hyperspace runs on them. And the idea behind the hyperspace tracking...

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Post by Jaeven » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:15 am

Griffin wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:51 am
I never got to the point of picking apart the character's individual flaws in TLJ, I got stuck at... how is the first order paying for all this stuff AND making it within thirty years after Endor... and no one notices? Just the shipyard for the Supremacy would turn heads, let alone the amount of workers and materials needed to make Starkiller Base all at the same time (not to mention the fleet of Resurgent-class Star Destroyers [featuring over 1,500 turbolasers and ion cannons!!??]) and Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnoughts. You need the best designers and scientists for that as well (let us not forget hyperspace tracking, because the Supremacy simply having Interdiction abilities would have been boring, and not allowed Fin and Rose to go on their little mission which ended up only to provide a space to complain about capitalism), and no one leaked any information or was able to escape to explain in person given how flat out incompetent the first order is?

And then there is the Raddus ramming the Supremacy and taking out several Resurgent-class Star Destroyers as well... Why didn't the Rebellion try this on the 2nd death star with mon cal cruisers on autopilot aimed right at the center of the death star... and if this hyperspace ramming is a tactic, the whole idea of star bases, or any capital ships sticking around to fight goes down the toilet as we would just see a constant stream of star fighter sized drones doing hyperspace runs on them. And the idea behind the hyperspace tracking...
Worldbuilding is definitely a failure of the movies, which is a shame because supplemental material paints an interesting picture. The basics are that the First Order has two faces: One is the public one. The galaxy believes the First Order controls a few minor sectors and only possesses outdated ships. I imagine they're only showing a small, under-equipped military that's using Imperial-era tech. Think of them as North Korea in space: If North Korea tried to invade South Korea for example, it wouldn’t take long before it was crushed by the US military. That's exactly what people believe about the First Order. That if they ever tried anything, the New Republic Defense Fleet would quickly arrive to crush the small, outdated First Order military.

The hidden face of the First Order is the one we see from the start of TFA. In reality, they have massive shipyards and training facilities hidden within the Unknown Regions, far from the eyes of the New Republic, where they've been able exploit countless worlds and enslave the local populations to produce weapons and ships for the First Order. Later they'd do the same with neutral systems that were outside the control of the New Republic, albeit without showing too much strength. All of that they did for 30 years, until the moment they're ready to strike.

I should also point out that they didn't have to start out from scratch. After Jakku the Imperials sent countless ships, including a Super Star Destroyer into the Unknown Regions to regroup. Those forces form the core of what is going to become the First Order.

As for the the hyperspace ramming, a couple of things. We know the ram damaged the Supremacy, but didn't fully destroy it, as they were still able to launch an invasion on Crait afterwards. So even if the Rebels did try something like that, it's possible they may only damage, but not kill the Death Star.
Finally, the set of circumstances that allowed the Raddus do that won't be repeated anytime soon. The First Order didn't assume the cruiser to be a threat, so they completely ignored it until it was too late. Just like it's probably not that easy to calculate a vector that directly impacts another ship, especially one that isn't as enormous as the Supremacy.

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Post by DarHan » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:51 am

Re: hyperspace ramming
The circumstances in the movie were unique. Notice how the Raddus missed its aim by a couple dozen kilometers and only hit the Supremacy because it’s such a wide target. The Raddus itself was large enough to serve as a projectile—and even then, note how the only reason why the damage was so great is because the Supremacy was a relatively thin object. Then there’s the distance. If the Supremacy had been slightly closer, the damage would have been much more negligible (see in Legends, the Executor’s shields shrugging off a direct impact by three ISDs at once). If it had been a bit farther, the Raddus would have been in hyperspace before hitting it.

The short version: hyperspace ramming is an extremely tricky and costly tactic and it’s a miracle it even worked here.
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Post by General_Trageton » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:01 am

Hm I'm just remembering that one legends prequels comic where a Republic diplomat cruiser actually jumped "through" a planet, Ki-Adi Mundi noting that it's "possible but not recommended"....
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Post by Rich C » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:59 pm

Can we recut it like this in the Special Edition? :D

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Post by General_Trageton » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:44 pm

LMAO! That would have been epic XD
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Post by Driftwood » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:48 pm

LOLLLLLzzz

At least we'd have gotten to keep the Raddus at this point, so that'd be a pretty major selling point for some people. :P

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Post by Tuskin » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:49 pm

Plus it isn't the first time we've seen a ship hit another object when entering hyperspace. In Clone Wars, a separatist ship hits a small moon while accelerating to hyperspace.

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Post by Turgidson » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:25 pm

IMHO, this hyperspace ramming stuff is something that first looks cool on the movie screen... but when thinking about it later, somewhat sucks because of all the implied possibilities. I don't think the screenwriters had an explanation in mind when they did it, or even when the movie was released... some of them (or the Disney canon librarians) may try to retcon some explanation later - but IMHO, that's not the way I should assess this, I don't think I should try to see some shit is gold when it looks and smells like shit. Anyway, it's not the first time a fictional universe has shown inconsistencies, it'd be fine if all the rest were fine.

On the Holdo part: I do think the character is poorly written. And in particular, doesn't look or behave like a high-ranking officer - whether male or female. Officers on duty wear uniforms and follow military protocols - not the case here, and even if Holdo had evacuated while off-duty she'd for sure would have been able to access some officer's jacket (by the way, all the other officers do wear uniforms... so there's no excuse here). Here, she's acting like a politician - at most, a retired military, in which case she wouldn't be in the military chain of command (but the movie implies the contrary).
This is nothing to do with "female admiral" concept criticism... There have been other female admirals in (space-)fiction, who were entirely believable. For example: Admiral Cain in the BSG series. Whilst she's far from perfect (but anyway there are no perfect beings in that universe), at least she's well-written and entirely believable as a high-ranking officer.

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Post by Tuskin » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:38 pm

Leia never wore a uniform in either TFA or TLJ.

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Post by Turgidson » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:45 am

... and I think they got it wrong on the costume side (but at least Leia's character is believable, perhaps because she's always been perceived more as a politician leader than a purely military one).

By the way, this interview is "interesting" on the costume part:
https://fashionista.com/2017/12/star-wa ... i-costumes

Basically: they wanted Leia to look "regal", and Holdo to look "beautiful" in a gown. It was their choice, and IMHO they got it wrong; a "beautiful gown" doesn't fit an admiral of a fleeing navy... nor would a dinner tuxedo or a beach shirt fit a male admiral.

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Post by Tuskin » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 pm

Han was a General but still wore his normal smuggling outfit. Even on Endor, he wore a camouflaged jacket over top his normal outfit.

Lando wore a cape with his General's uniform.

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Post by Griffin » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:11 am

Rich C wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:59 pm
Can we recut it like this in the Special Edition? :D

Image
I would have been more okay with this than Holdo piloting and ramming the Raddus on her own into the Supremacy (destroying twenty escorting Resurgent-class Star Destroyers in the process) lol. Ramming while jumping to hyperspace would be a devastating tactic every side would be utilizing in every midsized to large scale battle, and blowing holes through the death star 1 or 2 with this tactic, even if not right down the middle into the reactor core, would have caused such devastation that the death stars would have needed massive repairs, making them even more ridiculously costly to operate.

If perhaps they made up some force power that allowed Rey, Luke, Leia, (or have some other random force user added to the movie for this one plot point [or give Holdo the ability to use the force]) to lower the Supremacy's shields just before the Raddus rammed it, that would have been better. Sure, as it is it looks cool on screen, but the moment I saw what was about to happen I started :explode: :kopfwand:

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Post by Tuskin » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:23 am

They don't do it any other time because it's a waste of resources. Problem solved.

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Post by Griffin » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:44 am

Tuskin wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:23 am
They don't do it any other time because it's a waste of resources. Problem solved.
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Post by Jaeven » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:15 am

There's been plenty of explanations in this thread as to why hyperspace ramming only worked in that one instance, and why we're not going to see it again.

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Post by DarHan » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:11 pm

The latest Star Wars Resistance episode was about salvaging some fuel (coaxium) for the Colossus’s depleted hyperdrive. Funnily enough, they got it from the wreck of the Fulminatrix above D’Qar.
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Post by Tuskin » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:55 pm

'Final' Trailer is coming out Monday night during Monday Night Football.

Final in quotes, since there will no doubt be a dozen smaller shorts clips between then and the release of the movie.

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