Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:41 pm

I take that as you have nothing to say in response. Fair enough.

I also answered your question in the last part of my post.

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Post by WarHawkster » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:55 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:41 pm
I take that as you have nothing to say in response. Fair enough.

I also answered your question in the last part of my post.
My point is you can’t just point to the flaws of one movie to justify the flaws of another. You can point to flaws in the OT all day, but that does not erase the flaws in TLJ. It’s your attempt to change the subject by putting me in the position of defending the OT. I’m just not falling for it.

You did answer my question, but only in part. I don’t personally see why they would place so much value on expendable TIE Fighters, but I’ll give you that. Now what about jumping Star Destroyers ahead? That seems to be the most obvious oversight in the land of hyperspace and whatnot.

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Post by Jaeven » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 pm

It's just that no other movie has had to answer as much for alleged plotholes than TLJ, even though as pointed out the OT and PT had just as many plot-holes. Somehow though, only the Sequels are considered terrible movies. That's what my point was. That there is a clear double standard.

The First Order values their pilots because they can't afford to throw them away. They're not the Empire; they don't have an infinite war machine to replace losses.
I'll repeat my earlier point about comparing it to the OT. The Emperor doesn't order the fleet to crush the Rebel fleet in direct combat. Why? Arrogance and trying to make a point. It's not outright stated, but it's easy enough to read into.
It's the same here. The First Order has all the time in the world. Why bother with something like tactics when you have such an overwhelming advantage that nothing could possibly go wrong? It's the same arrogance displayed by Tarkin and Palpatine.

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Post by WarHawkster » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:34 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 pm
It's just that no other movie has had to answer as much for alleged plotholes than TLJ, even though as pointed out the OT and PT had just as many plot-holes. Somehow though, only the Sequels are considered terrible movies. That's what my point was. That there is a clear double standard.

The First Order values their pilots because they can't afford to throw them away. They're not the Empire; they don't have an infinite war machine to replace losses.
I'll repeat my earlier point about comparing it to the OT. The Emperor doesn't order the fleet to crush the Rebel fleet in direct combat. Why? Arrogance and trying to make a point. It's not outright stated, but it's easy enough to read into.
It's the same here. The First Order has all the time in the world. Why bother with something like tactics when you have such an overwhelming advantage that nothing could possibly go wrong? It's the same arrogance displayed by Tarkin and Palpatine.
None of the OT plot holes were as obvious to me as the ones from TLJ. Maybe that’s nostalgia or whatever, I hadn’t thought of any of those before. The bronco chase in TLJ hit me like a ton of bricks when I first saw it. It was really obvious that they had run out of ideas, and the only reason it’s there is to have a B plot to give secondary characters something to do(casino planet). None of the ones from the OT are quite that bad imo.

Why didn’t they jump ahead a few star destroyers though?

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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:07 pm

The chase might also gotten a pass, if the casino planet plot had been well-received.

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Post by WarHawkster » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:12 pm

keiranhalcyon7 wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:07 pm
The chase might also gotten a pass, if the casino planet plot had been well-received.
Maybe. It would have helped if it been more exciting, and somewhat more plausible. Nope just a boring ass slow chase to stall for time enough to have dumb B plot.

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Post by CIDlord_1973 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:55 pm

I won't pay for it.
Disney doesn't deserve my money.
They killed Luke and Han, so i'm done with Disney.

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Post by BattleDog » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:17 am

Rich C wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:24 am
BattleDog wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:57 pm
Why did the Republic employ transports with no defences and no hyperdrive?
It's called an "Orbital Loadlifter", which sounds like it's a cargo vessel for taking stuff up into orbit; I don't see anywhere that it's been tied to the NR at all, just the Resistance. :?

If you meant why the Resistance use them, as others have pointed out, the Resistance is hard-up for cash, and takes whatever it can get. I would guess they were intended for ferrying base equipment, much of which Leia insisted be portable in case of another attack like on Hoth.

It's also possible that such systems simply can't be installed due to design limitations like physical space, internal heat buildup, available power from the reactor (which may not be possible to modify/replace), and so on.

The new trilogy has plenty of problems, I don't really see that this is one of them, though. :/
OK, so then we file it under "Leia is space senile."

Even assuming the ships are plausible - and I still have an issue with that given Rebel doctrine - that doesn't make their use any less monumentally dumb. Nor does it make the choice to drop out of Hyperspace TOO FAR from the base dumb.

Why do they exit into real-space so far away? Answer - so it takes 48 hours to get to the base, and so they Frigates can be destroyed pointlessly.
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Post by DarHan » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:24 am

You’re still assuming the Resistance had the means and the time to organize a well-planned evacuation. When you have only a few ships to begin with AND a severe emergency, would you really expect to be able to do more than grab what’s available? You know, little ships at Dunkirk and all that?

As for exiting real-space… Do you really intend to say that no EU work has ever featured ships exiting hyperspace to regroup? Especially ships that just had to jump away in a hurry?

Crait probably wasn’t even the original destination, or else forces would have been sent ahead to prepare it for the fleet’s arrival. They only chose to evacuate to Crait because the planet happened to be within reach just when they needed to change the plan from “regroup in outer space and jump to a new destination” to “just avoid being blown up with the ships”.
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Post by BattleDog » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:49 pm

DarHan wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:24 am
You’re still assuming the Resistance had the means and the time to organize a well-planned evacuation. When you have only a few ships to begin with AND a severe emergency, would you really expect to be able to do more than grab what’s available? You know, little ships at Dunkirk and all that?

As for exiting real-space… Do you really intend to say that no EU work has ever featured ships exiting hyperspace to regroup? Especially ships that just had to jump away in a hurry?

Crait probably wasn’t even the original destination, or else forces would have been sent ahead to prepare it for the fleet’s arrival. They only chose to evacuate to Crait because the planet happened to be within reach just when they needed to change the plan from “regroup in outer space and jump to a new destination” to “just avoid being blown up with the ships”.
I don't see how the Resistance can really be worse off than the Rebels after Alderaan was destroyed. They've got a cruiser and two Frigates, they've got bombers, they're overall better equipped than the Rebel Cell that occupied Hoth. The Rebel High Command basically run the Resistance, why aren't they following basic Rebel Doctrine? As many ships as possible scattered as far apart as possible.

The two Frigates even follow the crusier.

Oh - and why are there no pickets out? The X-Wing's have Hyperdrives, even if the new A-Wings don't.

The thing is - all you have to do is look at the successful evacuation from Hoth to work out how to do it - but they get everything wrong.
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Post by Jaeven » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:58 am

Respectfully disagree on all counts. The Rebel Alliance was in way better shape. The Rebels on Hoth had a shield generator and ion cannon that rendered some of the Empire's advantage void. Likewise, while not equipped with a fleet, the Rebels on Hoth had enough personnel to fill specific positions full time. By contrast, the Resistance is so short-manned that people often had to do double duty as techs, engineers and soldiers.

As for those frigates you mention, one is a cargo ship, the other a medical vessel. Those neither can nor should operate independently away from the heart of their task force. We see the same in XWA, in fact. Both Defiance and Liberty task forces are being led by a single Mon Calamari cruiser, which in turn has command of several support vessels. Exactly like the group we see in the TLJ.

The Resistance is following Rebel doctrine. We know Leia sent out Inferno and Black squadron to gather allies. We also know the Resistance has two other Mon Calamari cruisers, Home One and Echo of Hope, operating somewhere. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say they're followed by similar task forces, trying to gather allies.

I also don't think Hoth is a fair or valid comparison. On Hoth, the Rebels could hide behind a shield and stage a quick, but well-organized evacuation made possible by a hold-out action on the ground. If the Resistance had a shield at D'qar, it would have been rendered useless by the Mandator-IV. In addition, the Resistance didn't have an ion cannon that would have allowed them to sneak past the First Order fleet. I'd actually argue the evacuation of D'qar was a resounding success ruined by two factors.
1.) Poe throwing away half the fighter corps and all the bombers in a useless attack.
2.) The First Order having hyperspace tracking, which the Resistance couldn't have possibly known about.

Think about it like this: If they didn't have hyperspace tracking and Poe hadn't recklessly attacked the Mandator, they'd have gotten away without any casualties at all.

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Post by DarHan » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:33 am

Pretty much. Hoth was a mostly successful evacuation. They had plenty of evacuation ships on hand. Thanks to having a shield, they were able to nullify the Empire’s bombardment opportunities and forced it into a ground assault. Between the ground assault delaying the base’s destruction and the ion cannon carving a path amidst Death Squadron, most of the evacuation ships were able to fly out. Then they presumably regrouped somewhere, then joined the existing Rebel fleets.

D’Qar didn’t have a shield, so they couldn’t prevent the FO from instantly resorting to bombardment. Without the ability to force the FO into a ground battle, the infantry was of no help. The base didn’t look like it had any ship complement aside from starfighters, either so they likely sent a message—“Every ship that can reach us and help us evacuate before the First Order’s arrival should do so”. The four ships we’ve seen (two warships, one hospital ship, one cargo ship) are those who could make it on time. I presume the orbital lifters were part of the cargo ship’s complement.

If not for the hyperspace tracker, the evacuation would have been a success even with Poe’s antics. The fleet was in the second stage of a successful evacuation: the regrouping phase. But the plan changed because the FO managed to follow the evacuees, and Leia understood that they had three options:
  1. Jump to another outer space rendezvous point, run out of fuel while doing so, and get obliterated;
  2. Jump to a Resistance base or fleet, and watch as it results in said base or fleet is obliterated by Snoke’s fleet;
  3. Stall by flying away at sublight speeds and start looking for ways to discreetly drop the evacuees somewhere without the FO noticing it.
She chose the third option, and once again everything would have worked fine even with Poe/Finn/Rose’s antics. They would have lost the ships and some of the crew but would have safely landed and hid on Crait. The only reason why it didn’t work was DJ’s betrayal.
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Post by General_Trageton » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:25 am

On a different note: It‘s just been confirmed that Dennis Lawson will be returning to reprise his role as Wedge Antilles!

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Post by DarHan » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:31 pm

:shock: Wait what WHERE
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Post by General_Trageton » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:18 pm

A representative of the actor has confirmed it. Also what looks like his face appears on a spanish(?) book cover for the movie lineup
3E823EB9-4129-40D8-BD99-39740019DF50.jpeg
Looks like him alright
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Post by capitanguinea » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:04 pm

If Wedge is alive, the Resistance has already won. Aside from Han Solo he is the true best starfighter pilot commander. The one who are cheaters... err Force User do not count.

*_* Wedge is back. Now the Galaxy would know hope!

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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:08 pm

If there are two other resistance cells out there, it would make sense that he'd be leading one of the other fighter wings.

They'd better not be bringing him back just to kill him off.

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Post by Driftwood » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:58 pm

Welp, I half expect Disney pulls another "FFFF you" to the fanbase by killing off another well loved and competent character as they did with the (seeming) entire OT/EU Alliance and New Republic senior military staff.

I'll still go see the movie, and hopefully it'll be better than the last two pieces of hot garbage. If not, my expectations are set awfully low at this point so worst case my resignation to the fact the NU Star Wars sucking is validated yet again. I hope not though, I really want it to be good.
I don't buy much "STAR WARS" (or Disney) products these days as a result of their bad plots and SJW marketing nonsense. So far all they have is a bunch of FFG X-Wing ships, one copy of each DVD, Rebels series DVDs, handful of legos, some costume parts, and the Thrawn books (NEW THRAWN SERIES COMING BY THE WAY!!!!!) and the new Battlefront games (not full price either). Money talks, and mine is saying "Don't spend me on this garbage". But I want to.

As much as I hate to say it, I wish the SW fanbase would #Gillette Disney right about now. And here are the facts related to seeing how this could be effective beyond "money talks".

Here's the facts as to why I think this "could" be effective to affect change in Disney's direction and treatment of Star Wars and it's primary fanbase. Because, really what other options do we have at this point to protest without "speaking with our wallets", writing letters and communicating via social media and content reviews seems to go entirely ignored at this point.

Gillette primarily sells razors and hygiene products marketed towards men. > Gillette hired Kim Gehrig (a feminist) from the UK advertising agency "Somesuch" which is largely run by feminist corporate executives, and a company that leans towards feminine primary advertising*. > Ensuing consecutive Gillette ads mock men, also paints men in negative light, men not portrayed as "toxic" portrayed as weak feminine soy boy douche-bags; TL;DR masculine men perceived as "bad". > Self respecting men spanning several generations of loyal Gillette customers stop spending their money on Gillette products due to the overt slander**. > Results in area of 8 billion dollars in losses due to said customers switching to Schick, Harry's, Dollar Shave, ect.
Including myself, and I'm a shave twice a day kind of guy, so I go through blades fast and need 'quality blades', and I only used Gillette for the last 17 years or so; :zensur:

Gillette historically has had "booth babes" and done the traditional "market hot girls advertising our product and men will buy them" ads, in today's SJW society they decided to jump on the train to avoid bad publicity. It backfired horribly.
When your company's and brand's net worth is approximately around 16 billion USD, and you lose 8 billion USD due to one or two commercials due to "going woke" does that seem like a good business move? That's HALF your net worth gone! Does that invoke change or reversal in your future business and marketing decisions? Absolutely it should. But in Gillette's case I think it's too little too late with their reversal. Men are collectively, beginning to wake up to the fact that men are the collective joke of "modern society" socially, legally, inter-personally, and some are starting to fight back against the mistreatment and exploitation. The Gillette "phenomenon" as I like to call it, is evidence of that, and one of the more effective and overt "FFFF you" stances I've seen to date since it's had global recognition and clear significant financial impact.

Businesses are out to make money, and having talked to and heard stories from people in businesses and marketing departments within said corporations, the (successful) business doesn't give a flying fart about political correctness***, and you'd be surprised how they come to decisions on how they market to their target demographics.
*Global financial reports indicate that women currently make 80% of daily spending and economic decisions. Marketing thus tends to target females since economically this is generally good business sense to appeal to those individuals most likely to spend money or purchase your products (looking at gendered spending trends women historically spend more than men, period. Men and women spend money differently if you look what is purchased beyond necessities).
In this case it backfired entirely given they marketed from a feminine primary perspective (SJW and slanderous to boot) and their target consumer in this case happened to be predominantly male (big oops).

**Incidentally, this "toxic masculinity" campaign in the context regarding Gillette's faux pa also rendered a significant portion of women who appreciate masculine men, and saw the commercial for what it was, blatant slander and anti-male/masculine propaganda, incensed and outraged. Ironically many women (typically wives) encouraged their men to ditch Gillette. Triggered women = bad for business. This "toxic masculinity" nonsense is becoming a greater widespread issue and it's not being taken well by the greater masses than our politicians and college administrations seem to think it is. Unsurprisingly.

***Unless it makes them more money by being politically correct, or non-politically correct in that given moment. That's why it's called "marketing". Effective marketing = higher sales = more income generation. Entirely amoral when broken down to numbers on a spreadsheet; big business DGAF.
How is this overt socio-political economic observation relevant to Star Wars? TL;DR version for those either triggered or otherwise uninterested in my outspoken observations of our current state of society and how it's directly affecting star wars; costing Disney a hypothetical 8 billion dollars in losses due to lack of consumer spending, it'd speak volumes and the reality is proportionally if the masses did a Gillette style boycott it'd probably cost Disney much more than 8 billion dollars since it's estimated that Star Wars is worth 27-42 billion dollars compared to Gillette. (Disney doesn't release exact figures for the franchise's net worth apparently that I can find.) Lets presume the franchise is worth 27 billion, but it's probably closer to 35 billion. 13.5 billion dollars in losses would require they re-evaluate their approach.
In theory. Or at least go "Oh, FFFF we may have a problem."
On the other hand, they could just keep doing what they're doing by making excuses for their failures to tell good stories; "People suffering from Star Wars Fatigue" "The manbabies living in their moms basements are triggered because wammin", ect. and ignore our actual, real, and valid complaints and observations of the franchise plots, products, and issues (subjective or factual), because Disney overall makes so much money it's insane and 13.5 billion hypothetical dollars probably matters little to them comparatively to gains in other areas. Though from my perspective a net loss regardless how big, is significant; but I'm poor so I feel any net loss more than Disney does.

More likely to happen however, is we the fans due to our emotional investment in the franchise since childhood are going to go to the movies and buy their products (even if at a slightly enthusiastic and lower rate and/or volume) and voice our dissent, largely ignored, per-usual.

Now the long version titled "Feminine primary politics and marketing approach - an editorial on Kathleen Kennedy's mingling of personal politics and business":

As stated several times in some of my prior posts in what I consider a soft manner, Feminism and SJW agendas are being overtly as well as subtly (though I'd say the latter much less so these days) into Star Wars, both in regards to actors hired to perform the roles, the plot itself, and its marketing practices. Other than "Disney" who is responsible for this and the issues that are stemming from it?
Simple. Kathleen Kennedy is one of the primary issues. She owes her career path initially to a feminist lobbying agency due to them "filing to require the TV station she was working for to hire women for technical positions". If you look at her career path, it's been heavily dependent on hanging onto the coat tails of Spielberg and Lucas and their "properties"; she's not dumb, she goes where the talent is and knows how to profit from it; but now that she's calling the shots in Lucas' properties we can see in the Indiana Jones and Star Wars properties, the effects of her influences. And it's not a good thing as the back and forth in this thread (based on lore, consistency or politics) indicates.

Kathleen Kennedy has also publicly stated that
"I have a responsibility to the company that I work with. I don't feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way [to those particular fans]," Kennedy told the New York Times in an interview focused around Jones. "I would never just seize on saying, 'Well, this is a franchise that's appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.'"
(Later in the interview Jones also stated that she hopes men and women can relate to Jyn as a person - paraphrased, person sure, but men generally don't relate to women and vice versa. Empathetic and "relatable" aren't the same thing; as a character I thought she was "fine", but I'll keep my psychoanalytic observations of what "kind of person" she was to myself since it's not relevant to this post, all I'll say is she's not relatable to me.)

Well Kathleen that's a big part of our FFFFing problem with you and your attitude and the "astute observation of the primary audience being men" being the problem yet again, is the vast majority of Star Wars fans are men. Yes, more women are interested in Star Wars than there were; GOOD FINE YAY WOOO, some for what we would think "Star Wars is cool and it resonated with me so I like it", which is ideal, and many others simply due to it being a more niche "sexual marketplace" where there is less competition for male attention, and the "cute cosplay opportunities" to fuel their Instagram modeling "careers". There's nothing wrong with the latter either, but those individuals are not "real star wars fans" (generally, though not all cases aren't), they're capitalizing on the attention they get from the larger percentage of the males within the fanbase.

So the fact is you do owe men something Kathleen, personal respect by not pushing the "men are hot headed fools who need a woman to make the right decisions" bullshit as plot points and on screen interactions, and the fact that they, your male fans as a larger percentage of your fanbase are contributing their money to your business and their opinions should be considered given both their financial investments, and their emotional/time investments; the latter which is the reality is your fanbase knows more about your "product" than you do and have a sense of "adoptive ownership".
As for Kathleen's "responsibility to her company" extends to making them more money than they lose from their investment in the franchise. That's it. Point blank. Not pushing her personal politics. Then again, Disney makes its money so perhaps she "has fulfilled her responsibilities to the company" by pushing the gender politics in a round about way.

To quote a blog I read online about this subject by Teela Sammons (a woman for those who think gender matters in regards to opinion validity)
Kathleen Kennedy is phasing out the male heroes of the Star Wars saga. She’s turning it all female. “The Force Is Female”? Really? Give me a break! She’s turning it into an all-girls’ world. She is making it “Female Friendly” at the expense of losing millions of male fans. In my opinion, women are welcome in the Star Wars saga but not to take over.
Sums up my view perfectly, and she so plainly points out a concept that is known as "In Group Preference", or "Cognitive Ingroup Bias" regarding men and women in this particular instance "Kathleen is replacing men with Women".
These are psychological terms for situations like we wind up with Star Wars fans vs Star Trek fans (For sake of argument you can't like both) and their rivalry.
It's also a perverse form of tribalism. (nothing wrong with tribalism mind, but this is different).

Basically in this instance Kathleen and the feminist ad Director for Gillette's failed commercial for example are operating from explicit female in-group preference. Because it's good for "them", and it's relatable to "them"; so obviously everybody should be subjected to their viewpoint and opinions (when it evidently isn't wanted or appropriate) and its maifesting in a conflict on a smaller level IE, Disney/LFL vs SW fans in relation to society spanning levels like feminists vs non-feminists; men vs women, in a manner that is not productive and damaging to society as a whole.

Also factor in her co-opting of Nike's "Air Force One" shoes campaign T-Shirt. Yes that's right, the "THE FORCE IS FEMALE" T-shirts have nothing to do with Star Wars. It's surprisingly a marketing campaign to try and sell more athletics shoes to women. Go figure, right? So more evidence that Kathleen is catering to female "fans", which there is nothing wrong with trying to find ways to encourage half of the world's population to buy your product, it's business after all, it's even smart; but not at the cost of alienating a significant portion of your existing fanbase who you are dependent on since they buy your products for themselves and their children who you hope to continue to have purchase your products in the future. However, it also goes to show that Kathleen isn't capable of coming up with her own original idea, she has to "borrow from" Nike's marketing campaign to use it to push her personal feminist politics.
Side note, I'm somewhat surprised Nike hasn't sued for the brand appropriation (unofficially) but then again it's free advertising in a sense, so perhaps it's inconsequential enough for them to keep quiet on the subject.

The fact is though, that this issue expands farther beyond Kathleen Kennedy, the issue relative to the corporation is the Disney propaganda machine. There's a lot of socio-political documentation regarding their views and influence they've had in society's history and the political stances they've taken over the decades and it's somewhat shocking since consciously we don't pick up on most of it or take it for granted, but the subliminal or marginally concealed messages they input into their stories, movies, ect. are there and have been there forever. It's just getting more obvious to those who pay attention.

Beyond that it's simply put, an overall society issue. Deny it all "you" want, but it's true. And the fact that "we are noticing and feeling the effects of it" in seemingly "trivial" things like our entertainment media. (Really media has a huge impact without us consciously realizing what we are exposed to daily.)

This is just my unpopular opinion on how Star Wars is being afflicted by various outside factors based on my observations of society, business, politics, and the state of conflict between men and women int today's modern society. All of what I have stated in brief is quantifiable and qualifiable, but you have to approach the subjects from an objective perspective, and be aware of the historical and economical contexts that led us to the point we are at with the realization that the truth is awfully inconvenient and very uncomfortable.
Last edited by Driftwood on Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Darksaber » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:16 pm

Do you have the audiobook version of the above post available please :? :?
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Post by Driftwood » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:20 pm

Darksaber wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:16 pm
Do you have the audiobook version of the above post available please :? :?
Sorry, I'm trying to re-format the text layout a bit so it's more concise. I don't have a voice for radio.

The extra-extra short TL;DR version is: Disney doesn't care about our opinions, the fanbase is being ignored, cost them their net worth like people did with Gillette; influence real change.
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Post by DarHan » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:20 pm

… well, that’s a lot to unpack. I’d have an answer for that diatribe but think it’s a better use of my mental energy to go do something fun instead.
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Post by Driftwood » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:32 pm

DarHan wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:20 pm
… well, that’s a lot to unpack. I’d have an answer for that diatribe but think it’s a better use of my mental energy to go do something fun instead.
Either debate, or don't. I'm cool with either. A passive aggressive post, without sharing your views for consideration is awfully pointless and seems awfully "bait-y". Though I do appreciate you using the appropriate term, though I believe that the diatribe is in fact what is being enacted on the fanbase as a whole, and if Kathleen stands by her statements, towards the male fans specifically.

IDGAF either way. I largely stay out of these opinion threads because frankly nobody wants to hear what I have to say simply because they don't share the same opinion, and my observations are far from "popularly shared" whether because people don't believe the angle, can't see the angle, or happen to be operating from said angle, I'm not going to self censor in regards to what I see a lot of the issues being, and as a whole generally I agree with most of the observations and complaints in these Sequel Trilogy threads and share them so there isn't much point in posting my thoughts.
However, I also see a bigger picture as to "why" things in our little entirely subjective and not "overly important" Star Wars topic appear to be stemming from, and people seem to continue to go around in circles making the same complaints and not understanding "why" things keep going the way they are in relation to "the plot", I guess for lack of a better word.

I'm just throwing my thoughts and observations out there as I see it. It's called an opinion. I'm sharing what I know. You don't have to like it, you don't even have to read it. I'm not going to "argue" anything outside of what I would presume most would consider a "reasonable debate".

Because, as you say "I'm going to go use my mental energy to do something fun instead." (Okay, it's probably not more fun than arguing.) :D

While I prefer to stay away from even pseudo political debate on the interwebs, especially on the only forum I really give a damn about, are we not discussing things that we care about, relevant and in context with the topic at hand, and thus far civilly?

Or can we not do that, and are not all viewpoints and opinions considered here?

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Post by BattleDog » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:08 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:58 am
Respectfully disagree on all counts. The Rebel Alliance was in way better shape. The Rebels on Hoth had a shield generator and ion cannon that rendered some of the Empire's advantage void. Likewise, while not equipped with a fleet, the Rebels on Hoth had enough personnel to fill specific positions full time. By contrast, the Resistance is so short-manned that people often had to do double duty as techs, engineers and soldiers.

As for those frigates you mention, one is a cargo ship, the other a medical vessel. Those neither can nor should operate independently away from the heart of their task force. We see the same in XWA, in fact. Both Defiance and Liberty task forces are being led by a single Mon Calamari cruiser, which in turn has command of several support vessels. Exactly like the group we see in the TLJ.

The Resistance is following Rebel doctrine. We know Leia sent out Inferno and Black squadron to gather allies. We also know the Resistance has two other Mon Calamari cruisers, Home One and Echo of Hope, operating somewhere. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say they're followed by similar task forces, trying to gather allies.

I also don't think Hoth is a fair or valid comparison. On Hoth, the Rebels could hide behind a shield and stage a quick, but well-organized evacuation made possible by a hold-out action on the ground. If the Resistance had a shield at D'qar, it would have been rendered useless by the Mandator-IV. In addition, the Resistance didn't have an ion cannon that would have allowed them to sneak past the First Order fleet. I'd actually argue the evacuation of D'qar was a resounding success ruined by two factors.
1.) Poe throwing away half the fighter corps and all the bombers in a useless attack.
2.) The First Order having hyperspace tracking, which the Resistance couldn't have possibly known about.

Think about it like this: If they didn't have hyperspace tracking and Poe hadn't recklessly attacked the Mandator, they'd have gotten away without any casualties at all.
Poe's attack on the Matador was justified. It was a judgement call, not his to make, but it ultimately saved the resistance Fleet from being blown apart by the Matador's long-range guns as soon as they dropped out of Hyperspace over Crait. Leia justifiably chews him out on the bridge but she cuts him some slack because it is a judgement call, she only demotes him when he continues to be publicly insubordinate.

Regarding the rest, the Rebels were mostly evacuated before the First Order even arrived - the last few transports were already lifting off. If they had had Hyperspace capable transports like on Hoth then the majority of the Rebel Forces would have already escaped into hyperspace before the First Order even arrived. Further, if they had had Hyperspace-capable transports they probably wouldn't have deployed a Cruiser to cover them as it's an inefficient use of resources. By contrast, the evacuation of Hoth did not even begin until the Empire arrived in-system and the entire evacuation was conducted under fire.

The evacuation of D'qar fails due to poor planning and execution.

Also - you think this is "well equipped"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygYEqL61H4o

A lot of the infantry don't have rifles, just hand blasters. Rogue Squadron are using Airspeeders that will stop functioning if it gets too cold.

If the resistence had had the transports the rebels did at Hoth they would probably have got away scott-free.
Got rid of the sig, it was upsetting me.

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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:25 pm

BattleDog wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:08 pm
Jaeven wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:58 am
Respectfully disagree on all counts. The Rebel Alliance was in way better shape. The Rebels on Hoth had a shield generator and ion cannon that rendered some of the Empire's advantage void. Likewise, while not equipped with a fleet, the Rebels on Hoth had enough personnel to fill specific positions full time. By contrast, the Resistance is so short-manned that people often had to do double duty as techs, engineers and soldiers.

As for those frigates you mention, one is a cargo ship, the other a medical vessel. Those neither can nor should operate independently away from the heart of their task force. We see the same in XWA, in fact. Both Defiance and Liberty task forces are being led by a single Mon Calamari cruiser, which in turn has command of several support vessels. Exactly like the group we see in the TLJ.

The Resistance is following Rebel doctrine. We know Leia sent out Inferno and Black squadron to gather allies. We also know the Resistance has two other Mon Calamari cruisers, Home One and Echo of Hope, operating somewhere. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say they're followed by similar task forces, trying to gather allies.

I also don't think Hoth is a fair or valid comparison. On Hoth, the Rebels could hide behind a shield and stage a quick, but well-organized evacuation made possible by a hold-out action on the ground. If the Resistance had a shield at D'qar, it would have been rendered useless by the Mandator-IV. In addition, the Resistance didn't have an ion cannon that would have allowed them to sneak past the First Order fleet. I'd actually argue the evacuation of D'qar was a resounding success ruined by two factors.
1.) Poe throwing away half the fighter corps and all the bombers in a useless attack.
2.) The First Order having hyperspace tracking, which the Resistance couldn't have possibly known about.

Think about it like this: If they didn't have hyperspace tracking and Poe hadn't recklessly attacked the Mandator, they'd have gotten away without any casualties at all.
Poe's attack on the Matador was justified. It was a judgement call, not his to make, but it ultimately saved the resistance Fleet from being blown apart by the Matador's long-range guns as soon as they dropped out of Hyperspace over Crait. Leia justifiably chews him out on the bridge but she cuts him some slack because it is a judgement call, she only demotes him when he continues to be publicly insubordinate.

Regarding the rest, the Rebels were mostly evacuated before the First Order even arrived - the last few transports were already lifting off. If they had had Hyperspace capable transports like on Hoth then the majority of the Rebel Forces would have already escaped into hyperspace before the First Order even arrived. Further, if they had had Hyperspace-capable transports they probably wouldn't have deployed a Cruiser to cover them as it's an inefficient use of resources. By contrast, the evacuation of Hoth did not even begin until the Empire arrived in-system and the entire evacuation was conducted under fire.

The evacuation of D'qar fails due to poor planning and execution.

Also - you think this is "well equipped"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygYEqL61H4o

A lot of the infantry don't have rifles, just hand blasters. Rogue Squadron are using Airspeeders that will stop functioning if it gets too cold.

If the resistence had had the transports the rebels did at Hoth they would probably have got away scott-free.
We know that in hindsight it was the right decision. But with the knowledge they have at the time of the Battle of D'qar, it's an incredibly stupid one. He wastes all the bombers and most of the Resistance fighter corps to destroy a single capital ship. Is the Mandator a valuable ship? Sure. As valuable as all those ships were for the Resistance though? No. Poe didn't attack the Mandator because he felt he needed to make sure it couldn't threaten anyone again. He attacked because he's a reckless, cocky ace pilot who thinks he can't lose. With the attack he shows he has no regard for the big picture whatsoever. If he did, he would understand that the First Order can take those losses more than the Resistance can.
I would also point out that the first thing Leia does when she sees Poe is slapping him and then demoting him, before Poe can even answer.

Compare what the Rebels have on Hoth to what the Resistance deploys on Crait. Handweapons aside, all they have is ancient Rebel-tech recovered from the abandoned base, which indicates they have absolutely nothing in regards to ground equipment. I also think the Raddus is actually a superb ship for an evacuation. It has plenty of space for personnel and equipment, and it's not like the Raddus would be doing anything else in any event. It's unlikely to be a match against the First Order fleets conquering the galaxy as the Resistance conducts its evac.

I also don't think individual transports would be sent off on their own to a rendezvous point. Yes, they did that at Hoth, but that's because they had no other choice. And even if they had done that, there still would have been ships left at D'qar that would have escaped to the same rendezvous point, allowing the First Order to follow them. And we saw in the movie what happened to all the other transports that were not onboard the Raddus - each of them got blown to pieces, the cargo ship within moments of the Supremacy's arrival.

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Post by Driftwood » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:23 pm

WarHawkster wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:38 pm
Driftwood wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:53 pm
That is not even remotely misogynistic. Not to be political but its frankly a feminist red herring. Feminine primary point of reference agenda was plainly stated by Kathleen Kennedy anyways "thebforce is female". Pretty obvious intent here. Rey is supposed to embody the strong woman fallacy. By this, "strong woman" is essentially a female exhibiting masculine traits equal to (in this case superior) a man.

Rey and the entire plot development for the new trilogy is frankly bad writing all around. Never mind how most of the men are talked down to by the women or portrayed in an inferior light in both new movies thus far.

How Solo and Rogue one avoided being overly politicized like the new trilogy is beyond me.
I get that’s the intent, but my point is that they are propping up the female characters by giving them enormous advantages they wouldn’t give a male character. This begs the question why they need to be propped up in the first place.
I'm sorry, I forgot to respond to this post.

Glibly, I'll TL;DR this post initially by stating "Because the characters cannot stand on their own"; it's the most obvious answer that needs zero explanation, because objectively they really don't stand on their own at all from what we know of STAR WARS, never mind most literary and cinematic exposure. And from a literary standpoint, or in my opinion social standpoint, what makes a compelling or strong female character are not the same things that make a compelling or strong male character.

For example LOTOR, Arwen was supposed to show up at Helms deep and save the day instead:
Liv Tyler had a wonderful comment on this change, “You don’t have to put a sword in [Arwen’s] hands to make her strong.”

The decision was a wise one. Not only did it anger fewer fans, but it made Arwen stand out from other movie heroines. It also made her different from Éowyn. When you compare Arwen’s strength, patience, and hope with Éowyn’s despair, Éowyn seems almost childish. (Not to say that Éowyn was childish–hers was certainly a hard, lonely life that could drive anyone to despair.) Because Arwen stands out as a unique, beautiful character, it makes it easier for the audience to understand Aragorn’s reactions to Éowyn.
Another example of a "strong female" that doesn't work in contrast using LOTOR as a compare and contrast within the same setting that isn't compelling is the female elf captain from the hobbit that has the hots for a dwarf. That character never existed in the book and was added for two reasons 1) romance angle to attract more women to see the movie 2) have a "strong female character" to draw more women to see the movie.
It wasn't believable and brought down the suspension of disbelief of the people who actually have read the Hobbit. Incidentally, most of the women that attended the movie either were existing fans, or significant others of actual fans. New female viewers were in the minority because LOTOR/Hobbit just doesn't interest most women because of gendered interest differences.

Consistency matters, baiting people with what we think will bring in new people usually does more harm than good. Make a good product, people will buy/watch/read/listen/play it.

What we as a viewer base are experiencing here specifically and society as a whole is called Cognitive Dissonance: the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change. It also has to do with suspension of disbelief, something the writers are doing or perhaps not doing is triggering something that is pulling us out of the setting and making us subconsciously think "This isn't right".

It's because the female characters are acting or behaving in ways that are inconsistent with "what we know about Star Wars", and perhaps also in real life. Using Rey as the most relevant example compare and contrast Rey and Luke's force ability progression. Luke struggled on screen, there was progression between the movies, the books comics and games further explored his progression, Rey's a prodigy where everything "just seems to come naturally" even to her surprise thus far in both movies (Haven't read her books so I'll operate on what I know). She was already a good fighter in EP7 to be fair and living alone she'd have to either put up or get put down so obviously she learned to survive, we can intimate that given her surrounding situational context.
However, the tipping point is that she's also a natural with a lightsaber having had no experience with one; contrary to existing lore that even experienced martial artists and swordsmen were flailing novice liabilities with how the lightsaber balance being unlike traditional bladed or staff weapons. That is why she's not believable as a character, she's breaking all the rules. And the kicker is, she's written that way primarily from an "out of universe" perspective, primarily to give young girls a sense of "empowerment", rather than teaching them what that really means. In universe, I haven't found a good explanation as to "why", other than obviously the force wills it at this point.

Rey's, frankly in universe and from a writing and social standpoint, a hot mess. She's extremely insecure and clearly has "something" to prove, and that doesn't make a very compelling character to me.

And to be clear it isn't a "women are inferior complex", at least not from the male side. Men and women are better at different things, and of course there's some overlap. If we work on averages, lets make up some numbers for sake of discussion 10% of jedi are entirely incompetent, 80% of jedi fall somewhere in the middle to varying degrees, and 10% of the population are superior in their competence. If we're talking Luke's developed force competency he's easily in the upper 5% given bloodline and training. Leia, if we go off of "historical record" she's maybe in the middle 60-80% in regards to force competency, Han is in the bottom 1% (say his luck isn't just luck) of force competency for sake of argument.
Breaking it down further Han has zero natural or developed talent, Leia has some marginally above average talent given bloodline primarily along with some training, accounting for natural aptitude. Contrast this with Kylo who I'd put in the top 10% easily enough with natural aptitude and training, though clearly not up to Luke's ability and talents due to lack of experience and similar training, then throw Rey into the mix who wipes the floor with Kylo any time she has physically engaged him, who lets presume operates in the top 1-3% with zero training and seemingly "easy come" aptitude.

Leia's behavior is unlike how she acted in the OT.
Luke's behavior is unlike how he acted in the OT. So much so even the actor playing him commented on it and has actively voiced a negative view of how he is portrayed.
Han solo, Chewie, and the droids are the only believable OT characters since they were consistent with their established behavior and attitude patterns.
Other Alliance characters: Dead, can't comment since they played no significant role in the movies to really discuss IMO.
Admiral Holdo: I haven't read anything with her in it at this point, but even on screen her exhibited appearance and behavior was unlike any military, never mind naval officer I have ever encountered or observed. She isn't believable as a character as presented.
Rose: She's a nobody mechanic who hasn't done anything and winds up being a bigger hero than Finn, who has his own issues with acting unlike what his archetype should be (psycho conditioned stormtrooper since childhood, hyper masculine, testosterone raging badass that shouldn't even be playing the role he is in the movie. Would have made more sense to have him as an NR intelligence operative deep undercover plant.
Poe acts like I would expect, and I have no complaints about the character thus far as he is one of the few believable ones.
Kylo is experiencing cognitive dissonance within himself, but as a character he is behaving consistently with how he is presented and what we would expect from an antagonist, and it's pretty much what we expect from him.
Last edited by Driftwood on Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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