Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (may contain traces of spoil)

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

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Post by DTM » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:38 pm

Still 24 houers for me...

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Post by DarHan » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:16 pm

Unless something goes really wrong, I’m seeing it on Sunday.
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Post by Jaeven » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:25 pm

DarHan wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:16 pm
Unless something goes really wrong, I’m seeing it on Sunday.
Force be with you trying to avoid spoilers until then.

I'm having a hard time and the movie has only been out in Europe for a few hours. I need to last another 34 hours and that's already being a tough ask.

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Post by General_Trageton » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm

Pretty much 24hrs for me now.
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Post by General_Trageton » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:42 pm

Alright, Episode IX is about out by now. If you want to post spoilery content please announce it and use the color code #0C0C0C

Spoilers:
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Post by DarHan » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:00 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:25 pm
Force be with you trying to avoid spoilers until then.
My brother is the one who’ll need that, because he’ll be seeing the movie with me but his job requires him to be on Facebook until then.

As for me, I’m not so much trying to avoid spoilers as trying to avoid others’ opinions of the movie. Spoilers have never effected my enjoyment of a movie (or lack thereof) much. Being exposed (accidentally or not) to countless opinion pieces before I get to see it, however? Almost a guaranteed mood-killer.
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Post by DTM » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:43 pm

Ok: my rating is definitely positive. Lots of stuff, maybe too much for a single movie ...

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Post by Darksaber » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:56 pm

Spoiler:
The Butler did it!
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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:08 am

Darksaber wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:56 pm
Spoiler:
The Butler did it!
Spoiler:The First Order was just a red herring

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Post by Griffin » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:16 am

Spoiler: Movie will make over a Billion $

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Post by General_Trageton » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:59 am

What have I done....!

Edit: 2 more hours to go.
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Post by General_Trageton » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:14 pm

Just came home from cinema. Soooo, that was a hell of a lot to process. I'm with DTM that that was a lot of content to be packed into a single movie.
But overall I'm pleased with the way it turned out and how they wrapped things up. It does have some skips in logic, but they're in no way as grave as in EP8 and mostly forgivable. A great film by its own, it carries a heavy burden of having to iron its predecessors' screwups - and a few metric tons of fan service.
I've watched 7 and 8 just on the weekend to refresh my memories, and I personally consider this one to be the strongest of the new trilogy.

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Post by Marcos_Edson » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:57 am

General_Trageton wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:14 pm
Just came home from cinema. Soooo, that was a hell of a lot to process. I'm with DTM that that was a lot of content to be packed into a single movie.
But overall I'm pleased with the way it turned out and how they wrapped things up. It does have some skips in logic, but they're in no way as grave as in EP8 and mostly forgivable. A great film by its own, it carries a heavy burden of having to iron its predecessors' screwups - and a few metric tons of fan service.
I've watched 7 and 8 just on the weekend to refresh my memories, and I personally consider this one to be the strongest of the new trilogy.

Oh and: I knew it!
I'm with you guys in this one.
There was just one completely unnecessary bit as i see it but as G_T pointed, skip in logic...
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Post by DTM » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:24 am

After two days of reflection, I can now write a more detailed review.

I agree that this is the strongest movie in the new trilogy, but it highlights how weak this new trilogy has been. To tell his story, JJ was forced to shoot a movie with too many characters and information, some of which would have been more effective if included in the previous episode. An example that does not spoil is the return of Palpatine: it is not a surprise (it is even brutally announced in the initial titles), but it could have been a good twist at the end of the second film. We can also see how some characters introduced in ep8 have necessarily been downgraded in this film.
The frenetic storyline and the change of direction from the previous movie (one could speak of unrelated films between them, and I liked the second film very much) highlight the weakness of this trilogy: the lack of a main author, who already knew during the shot of the second film what he wanted to tell in the third. It's so obvious!
Soooo, my judgment on this film is good, instead it completely beat the leadership of Kennedy, who is a very good producer, but in her place an author was needed. Lucas should have named an heir who was a main author, as he was.

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Post by Jaeven » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:31 am

I think I agree with most of what DTM said. It was an absolute fuck up by Disney to make a trilogy without first planning where it was going to go. For each movie they were basically just shooting from the hip, and as a result we have a mess of a trilogy. And I say that as someone who likes the Sequels.

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Post by ANDREW L » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:25 pm

I saw it last night, I am still processing it but I will be honest Episode 8 pretty much killed Star Wars for me. I was so excited for that movie and left feeling like I got punched in the stomach. What made it worse was Rian Johnson being a total a** about it on twitter. I went into this with really low expectations and was surprised. There's still some silliness but I think that has to do with the fact that they had to walk back almost everything from TLJ.

My biggest problems with this movie....
Spoilers:
Palatine back makes it seem like Vader's sacrifice is for nothing. Also I really hate how they DON'T explain how he is back.
Also Rey is over powered she never fails its a big issue with the whole ST/DT what ever you want to call it, I think that's what helps Luke's character in the OT him failing and having to learn Rey somehow just knows how to do stuff and has abilities that are ridiculous.
Also they had how many fake deaths in this movie? 8 or so?


Still this is far better than TLJ. For me TLJ is the worst Star Wars movie ever made.
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Post by Q » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:34 am

Just got done watching the film and all I can say is, I ACTUALLY REALLY LOVED IT!!! I will not spoil anything but I felt the story came to a fitting conclusion even if it was not entirely what was expected (in a good way for me). My only major complaint with the movie was the utter lack of any truly epic ship-to-ship space battles on a scale like RotJ. The movie sets up a potential epic space battle that we only get a few brief glimpses of. I'm willing to give this a pass however since the focus is more on character development and finishing up the story arc(s). I can't speak to any Star Wars lore or plot mistakes since there is simply too much to process after only one viewing. I feel the film leaves a lot of room for the expanded universe content to fill in the details. The Mandalorian is my new most favorite show EVER and seems to be doing a great job expanding the Star Wars universe for now. I left the movie feeling mostly satisfied! As others have mentioned, the screenwriters should have really taken more time when plotting out the full story over three films. This movie's plot certainly feels rushed trying to cram everything in and trying to tie up all the loose ends! It felt like two films combined into one! Anyway, I'm not disappointed at all and recommend everyone see it, if only just to see how the story concludes.
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Post by Driftwood » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:39 am

I haven't seen the movie yet, and I heard it was better than 8. That's a good start. I also know most of the relevant plot points due to spoilers, and for once I'm actually okay with this in relation to my expectations. I'm still withholding judgement at this time, but this entire trilogy should never have gone down the way it did. Myopically, it should never have been made, but it does so I'm going to try and make the best of it; or disregard it entirely if I can't.

Secondly, Kathleen Kennedy is a terrible executive producer (also current president of LFL), DTM and I will have to disagree on this one point, regardless of her "experience" within LFL. Kathleen is merely a woman smart enough to know a property with profitable future and success to latch on to at the opportune moment, and how to network with "The right people". Her self told career history and observable properties and directors she's latched onto speaks volumes of her ability to be "in the right place at the right time" to further her career. IE she knew talented directors when she saw them. (Spielberg, Lucas, Scorsese, Eastwood ect.)
Her true incompetence is staggering ranging from the "borrowing" of the "Force is Female" line and T-Shirts from the Nike Air Force 1 shoe line ad campaign to non-subtly push a gynocentric feminine primary based focus within Star Wars in attempt to bring more female viewers in (I'm not sure it did or will, and it came across as cliche, plus who uses another companies ad campaign anyways?!), to stating (and I quote almost word for word) after receiving massive fan backlash for many areas of significance regarding plot, production, and direction "Writing Star Wars is hard, there's no source material, books, comics, games, to base our stories off of." after of course wiping out the entire EU from canon that wound up with them in this situation in the first place because "They needed full creative freedom", rather than owning the fact Bob Iger, herself and the production team have made critical mistakes in creating new content due to approaching things with a blank slate approach and little pre-planning on plot and IP direction and giving directors too much say; the team LFL created in the 90s to manage the in-universe lore in regards to past and future development existed FOR A REASON, and this trilogy is a good example as to that reason. The games, I'll admit though being produced by EA have been markedly better than the movies in spite of the (game's) issues as I see them. (Solo and Rogue One were good though)

Frankly, she needs fired. That's my opinion If anybody else would have cost Disney as many profits due to things she personally signed off on (EP8 - and yes Rian Johnson is obviously to blame also) and the flop (though I liked it) Solo was, Battlefront 1 and 2 rebrands, some mobile games, ect. then they would I speculate have had their contract terminated. I don't know the details, maybe permission was given maybe Nike didn't give a damn, but it's my impression co-opting of other companies products and advertising campaigns is illegal or at the very least frowned upon so I'm not sure how she was able to get away with using their merch in the way she did; I officially claim ignorance on this angle.

However, I'll admit she signed off on a lot of the successful things pre-Disney take over while with LFL so it really does seem strange that she's so obviously disconnected and out of touch with both the material and the fan-base. Although it may be incidental since she was only co-Chair with Lucas and him having final say, I suspect it was really him responsible for the successes during this time period. Otherwise I really don't understand from what I presume being over half a decade of exposure to the source material perspective going back 7 years, as well as the fanbase she should be fairly familiar with by now given all the conventions she's attended, and it seems awfully strange to wind up where we are now after all this time. I can't begin reconciling these facts unless one accepts one of two likely possibilities, she really is clueless and disconnected and thus incompetent in relation to the IP, or she's finally got the creative control and she's countering "her" existing fan base simply because she has her own agenda to push and doesn't really give a damn what they/we think either way, and being president of LFL gives her a mechanism to push it. Both are possible, maybe even simultaneously. Either way, it doesn't seem like she cares beyond the extension of her contract and the money she obtains from it. Although, I kinda think I'm giving her too much credit for the latter theory, maybe it's Disney doing this (probably) and she's just the scapegoat since "she's in charge". I dunno.

I will agree however that Lucas should have had more say in post Disney production, and that I think Dave Filoni should have replaced Kathleen post Disney take over as president of LFL since he seems to give a damn about the IP for more than the fat paycheck Kathleen seems to see it as; not to mention the fact that between the what, 9 years Filoni worked with and mentored by Lucas on the Clone Wars and Rebels TV series he was clearly being groomed to continue the legacy. I think this is also evidenced in his role regarding the Mandalorian, and the only failure being Resistance (though I'm not sure how involved he is as I've not seen the series and it's specifically related to the new trilogy which may be having a negative effect in spite of his involvement?)

In further agreement with DTM and Jaeven, ect. I do not understand how and why there wasn't more time spent in advance of any production, especially in the context of a trilogy specifically, why there wasn't a general plot worked out and decided that the directors would be required to stick to, though having creative freedom within those boundaries of the overarching story. Even if they changed directors like they did between the first two movies, the overall plot would be consistent and we probably wouldn't even know. I mean even with Spielberg directing EP 5 instead of Lucas, nothing really noticeable changed as I can recall between the two movies due to having a different director. Obviously Lucas was still writing and overseeing the process, and Spielberg was heavily included in his thought process.

Unfortunately though instead it seems Lucas' contract while it required Disney consult Lucas on all significant areas, Disney was clever enough to write in an escape clause in the vein of "We will consult Lucas but we reserve the right to ignore and discard his input as we choose" that functionally gave him the finger legally. And he signed off on it. But that's kinda where we're at, so oh well.

I really want to like the movie when I do actually get to see it. And the books, games, comics, series, new movies if any, ect. as it's all Star Wars and I'm heavily invested in this IP but it's been suffering for so long now I'm fairly jaded at this point and my patience for bad writing and modern social and political trends is about at an end.

Does anybody have any further observations on the movie plot points? Any particular specific issues with the plot (granted with the understanding of EP9 is what it is mostly due to EP8 ignoring EP7's intended direction)?

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Post by Tuskin » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:44 am

I loved the movie.

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Post by Jaeven » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:03 am

A day later, I'm slowly warming to the movie. I'm disappointed by the final battle (As any good fleet junkie), but I can live with the rest. Would give the movie a 7.5-8/10. I imagine the new EU is going to do its best to answer whatever hasn't been answered.

I still stand by what I said earlier though: I really, really liked the Sequels, but the lack of cohesion and a singular vision prevented it from being something truly special. Whatever was said publicly, it was clear there were major disagreements about the direction the trilogy was supposed to go between Rian John and JJ Abrams. And that blame lies solely on the shoulders of Lucasfilm. It was their job to ensure that there is a greater plan from the get go, and that they're not just making stuff up as they go along.

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Post by Q » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:29 pm

Let me just say this, the B-WINGs get shafted in this film!!! I know they tried to include them but come on Lucasfilm, not again! They cut out most of the B-Wing scenes from RoTJ and it feels like the exact same thing happened all over again with TRoS! I would love to see more of what the new Resistance B-Wings look like but I can't really find anything about them like I can with the new Y-Wings and TIEs. I noticed in the film they have a different set of engines, s-foils, and cockpit but it goes by so quick you barely get to see it. It looks like it shares design elements similar to Colin Cantwell's prototype X-Wing design in much the same way as the new Resistance Y-Wing is based off of his prototype Y-Wing model and Ralph McQuarrie's concept art. I'm hoping it gets some love in one of the Star Wars games or books.
Last edited by Q on Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Driftwood » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:34 pm

I have a few gripes, didn't particularly care for the declaration in the last scene Rey makes as it was pretty lame in general, and poorly delivered, and otherwise I just don't appreciate certain aspects of displayed PDA in the celebration scene, it's just not needed.

Still kinda processing, and that's even with knowing overall what to expect going into it. Overall it was actually a pretty decent movie, and I particularly enjoyed the fact that Wedge actually made it into the movie and from what I caught briefly appeared to be a Falcon turret gunner? That pretty much made my day, and Lando was brought back in what I would consider a suitable fashion.

I'm gonna give it a 6.5-8 out of 10 initially, I really need to watch it a few more times before I really give any serious critique in any significant detail as you all are right, there's a lot to take in too fast (surrounding the central plot which in and of itself was easy enough to follow) but I do share many of the expressed viewpoints on the pacing and certain character related observations in regards to sub plots. There really was a surprising amount of stuff they tried to cram into an almost 3 hour long movie. I don't think EP 9 vindicates or makes up for the overall "bad" of this trilogy but it's a great start at repairing the damage done at this point and I did not leave the theater feeling overwhelmed, nor disappointed and underwhelmed; I think the movie for what it was actually seemed to be not only a good movie, but had the Star Wars feel the first two seemingly lacked.

I am surprisingly reasonably optimistic about the SW IP going forward if they put out more work in this vein or along the lines of the Mandalorian (just started watching the series last night).

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Post by Darksaber » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:41 pm

Not excited at all, I'll still wait for the bluray

I like the Mandalorian :D
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Post by ual002 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:27 pm

Mando is solid.

Still not a fan of the sequel trilogy as a whole. However large chunks of Episode 9 are my favorite star wars, and made me very very happy. 8 is basically trash and so much had to be ignored or undone in Episode 9.
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Post by The Saxman » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:00 pm

Jaeven wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:31 am
I think I agree with most of what DTM said. It was an absolute fuck up by Disney to make a trilogy without first planning where it was going to go. For each movie they were basically just shooting from the hip, and as a result we have a mess of a trilogy. And I say that as someone who likes the Sequels.
In the shooting script for Star Wars Leia was described as two years younger than Luke, and Vader and Anakin were very EXPLICITLY two different individuals. In Empire Strikes Back the "Other" Yoda spoke of was NOT intended to be Leia in Return of the Jedi. His original treatment in The Star Wars (which itself shows that the saga didn't emerge whole cloth, but was refined over multiple drafts and rewrites) pretty neatly fits into the basic plot we got for the original film, just with the involvement of the Emperor.

I'm not disputing that the Sequel Trilogy was somewhat haphazardly put together, ESPECIALLY after Johnson's attempts to Deconstruct the entire thing right smack dab in the middle, (I still contend this was the single biggest mistake; Star Wars is a RECONSTRUCTION of mythic storytelling. Chosing to DEconstruct it ripped the heart and soul out of it, and even during the Legends EU never turned out well) but Lucas was no less writing by the seat of his pants. The whole "I had the entire saga mapped out from the start" has been proven to be a load of rubbish on multiple occasions and I find it incredibly annoying to see this card getting played by criticisms of the Sequel Trilogy.

Anyway, I agree with the sentiments that they crammed too much plot into the film. At the very least, I'd say the first half of Rise of Skywalker is the film the Last Jedi SHOULD have been. The return of the Emperor — and the delve into Sith mythology and its twist on the Rule of Two — should have been introduced earlier, as it would have made for a very strong hook to hang the plot of the Sequels around. The reveals about Rey also help frame her affinity for the Force into a whole new context (however I still contend that much of the backlash still centers around the fact that Rey is a woman who operates outside the acceptable mold. A male character would NEVER have been criticized to the same extent). Threepio's arc loses a little bit of weight from its easy resolution, and many of the interesting new characters and relationships simply aren't given time to develop.

Random Theory (Spoilers):

The film sets up hints that despite Ben being dead, he and Rey can still make the shippers happy and pursue their relationship.

While Legends established that eventually Force Ghosts can no longer manifest for people for...reasons, there's been no indication this is the case in Nucanon. Yoda appeared to Luke over 30 years after his death, and we even hear Qui-Gon speaking to Rey, despite having died some SIXTY years previously, and having no connection to her whatsoever. With Ben now being One with the Force, he can pop in as a Ghost.

Additionally, The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker have firmly established that a Force Ghost can directly affect the material word; Yoda called down lightning to destroy the First Temple, while Luke not only raised his X-wing out of Ahch-To's ocean, but physically CAUGHT Anakin's lightsaber when Rey tried to throw it away. The latter is especially significant, as it would allow them to interact beyond merely talking.

Finally, there's the whole thing from the Darth Vader comic where it was revealed that Palpatine was the one who manipulated the Force to impregnate Shmi Skywalker. Since a Force Ghost can actively use the Force in the material world, who's to say that Ben couldn't do the same with Rey?

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