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Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:17 am
by Jaeven
From the upcoming canon reference book Rebel Starfighters Owners' Workshop Manual.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGH4FcpXUAA ... =4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGH4HTFWoAI ... =4096x4096
Not sure what to make of it. Did the Y-wing really perform that well in the Galactic Civil War? The explanation that the Y-wing we see in the OT are field modifications by the Rebels makes sense, as does that Koensayr would then capitalize on its role in the war when producing standardized models for the New Republic, but the Y-wing had some glaring weaknesses that don't really seem addressed by this new version.
From storytelling point of view, I kinda find the design lazy. Would have rather preferred something like a downgraded K-wing.
But we also got some new info on the T-85 from the same book.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGH4FajXkAE ... =4096x4096
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:07 pm
by capitanguinea
the Y-wing performed well in the sense that it was the one medium bomber starfighter with ion cannon and laser, hyperspace capable, and with shielded that the Rebels can find. Strategically, without this asset they would be a lot uncapable to make any raid to procure what they need from Imperial Shipments in deep space....
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:17 pm
by Darksaber
To be honest I don't like it as a 30/40 year update to the original Y-Wing, to me I think they have gone backwards with the design as it resembles Ralph McQuarrie's prototype Y-Wing and not something that came after the original Y-Wing
Really poor design
ProtoYwing.jpg
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:47 pm
by Turgidson
My initial understanding was that the B-Wing was a more modern, superior ship compared to the Y-Wing.
I don't think a resurrected Y-Wing v2 (or even v3, since the original was already a field mod) is a good idea... It's more a combination of design lazyness and misplaced fanfiction, like the filmmakers wanted to play with OT toys but had to slightly modernize them cuz these are sequel movies. Same as TIE/fo, TIE/sf, T70... At least the prequels made some real efforts looking for new designs. In the Disney trilogy, IMHO only the TIE Silencer really shines.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:33 pm
by Jaeven
Turgidson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:47 pm
My initial understanding was that the B-Wing was a more modern, superior ship compared to the Y-Wing.
I don't think a resurrected Y-Wing v2 (or even v3, since the original was already a field mod) is a good idea... It's more a combination of design lazyness and misplaced fanfiction, like the filmmakers wanted to play with OT toys but had to slightly modernize them cuz these are sequel movies. Same as TIE/fo, TIE/sf, T70... At least the prequels made some real efforts looking for new designs. In the Disney trilogy, IMHO only the TIE Silencer really shines.
That’s my understanding as well. We know there is a B-wing Mk II out there, and we see some sort of B-wing in the trailer. If they go with the solution that the new Y-wing is some sort of light strike bomber, and the new B-wing being a heavy bomber designed purely designed to capital ships I can live with it. If they don’t go with something like that (which I think is going to happen) I agree with your points.
Darksaber wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:17 pm
To be honest I don't like it as a 30/40 year update to the original Y-Wing, to me I think they have gone backwards with the design as it resembles Ralph McQuarrie's prototype Y-Wing and not something that came after the original Y-Wing
Really poor design
ProtoYwing.jpg
Fully agreed.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:45 pm
by Driftwood
Ehhh, on one level I appreciate the nods to McQuarrie, I'm a bit underwhelmed.
I can make an argument for incremental upgrades and updates being valid due to current military doctrine about extending service lives of the vehicles and equipment available.
But they kept all the armor paneling stripped down? I was under the impression Y-wings were stripped down, retrofitted, and/or if Rebels series is any indicator, salvaged partially scrapped ships.
Wouldn't logically the NR and Koensayr add the armor paneling back on for refits or brand new production runs?
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:49 pm
by BattleDog
Canonically the B-Wing is not a bomber, but a heavy gunship. The Y-Wing is smaller, lighter, faster, more manoeuvrable and carries more bombs and torpedoes.
As to the design, it's essentially a more refined version of the original Y-Wing (unplated) with the turret set further back. Not sure why the turret needs to be set further back, but if they were going to include this fighter I would have preferred it have the full armour package, at least on the body if not the engines.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:30 pm
by Jaeven
BattleDog wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:49 pm
Canonically the B-Wing is not a bomber, but a heavy gunship. The Y-Wing is smaller, lighter, faster, more manoeuvrable and carries more bombs and torpedoes.
As to the design, it's essentially a more refined version of the original Y-Wing (unplated) with the turret set further back. Not sure why the turret needs to be set further back, but if they were going to include this fighter I would have preferred it have the full armour package, at least on the body if not the engines.
Perhaps the armor was removed to make the Y-wing a more agile strike bomber. We saw it didn't fare too well against TIEs, so rather than making it more armored (thus slower and less agile) they went with the other option.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:15 am
by keiranhalcyon7
BattleDog wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:49 pm
Canonically the B-Wing is not a bomber, but a heavy gunship.
Say what now? For it to be a "gunship", to my mind, it would need turreted weaponry, preferably enough for omnidirectional coverage. Imagine sacrificing the cargo capacity of a YT-1300 for additional turrets; that would result in a gunship. While we don't actually see much of the B-Wing in combat on screen (due to difficulties ILM had with the B-Wing model and the blue screen process), the model shows no evidence of turrets. I find TG's interpretation of its capabilities and role far more believable.
This Y-Wing is actually pretty close to how I pictured the 2-seat Y-Wing before I ever saw the one in Rebels or the concert art. To wit: I never considered a bubble. I was thinking along the lines of an externally-gimballed gun, like on the Falcon.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:23 am
by ual002
Sadly I've written off new canon. Trying to make sense of the design choices they made to capitalize on toy sales and recognizability to sell movie tickets is exhausting. Watching them write rationalizations post production for the in universe crowd hurts my head. I'll stick with Civil war era additions they make and post ROTJ legends stuff we all know and love.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:46 am
by Driftwood
ual002 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:23 am
Sadly I've written off new canon. Trying to make sense of the design choices they made to capitalize on toy sales and recognizability to sell movie tickets is exhausting. Watching them write rationalizations post production for the in universe crowd hurts my head. I'll stick with Civil war era additions they make and post ROTJ legends stuff we all know and love.
This is pretty much my take as well. I like most of the new tech, there is a logical progression. I still want to enjoy the new stuff though, but it's been really hard thus far. My kids enjoy it because "it's star wars" so I try to stay excited for them, and they aren't plagued with existing canon bias, or the awareness of the various things that draw down my enjoyment factors.
EC Henry's TFA+ series ship models seem spot on though for what I imagined as service life improvements.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:40 am
by Jaeven
Interesting points, as in some ways, I actually prefer the design choices in the sequels compared to legends. In legends, the Empire kept the same ships from the movies until the end of FOTJ. The same capital ships, the same TIEs (albeit with updated shields). There's probably more original First Order designs than there are Imperial ones in legends.
Ditto with the NR/GA, which is a gargantuan crime. There was a great effort by the Black Fleet Crisis to introduce new ships, but none of them ever really took off. While the MC90, MC80B and Bothan Assault Cruisers were great additions, a lot authors kept insisting that, for some reason, the NR/GA was now using Imperial Star Destroyers. (see LOTF).
With fighters, its even worse. Until the XJ3/StealthX came along, the NR kept using the same T65 X-wing (with minimal changes), the same A-wing, the same B-wing and heck, even the same Y-wing. The E-wing received some attention but wasn't really used much either beyond a few lines until the final X-wing book. And don't get me started on the disgraceful treatment of the K-wing.
With that said, are the sequels blameless when it comes to lack originality? Definitely not. It should have taken the best ideas from legends and expanded on them. That is a definite failure on behalf of the sequels. But I think overall there's probably more originality there than in most of legends post-Endor stories.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:02 am
by Turgidson
In the case of service life extensions, the exact same frame is kept but systems are incrementally updated. Keeping usage of ISDs, imperial TIEs or T65s (with a few internal upgrades) for quite a long time after Endor (like in EU/legends) would actually be exactly that.
And it's generally particularly true for big ships.
The designs shown in the sequel are not really "service life updates". They're merely design evolutions, strongly inspired by the old, but newly manufactured. And for example, IMHO, it doesn't make sense to use the T/F as basis, instead of the T/I, for the new FO fighters... Except to sell toys.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:11 am
by Phoenix Leader
I would be curious to see the stats (shields, hull, speed and maneuverability) of the T-85 X-Wing and BTA-NR2 Y-Wing.
Turgidson wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:02 am
Except to sell toys.
I'm afraid that's exactly Di$ney's strategy.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:22 am
by Phoenix Leader
Judging by the schematic Jaeven posted, the BTA-NR2 has a minor update over the BTL-A4 Y-Wing: the Astromech droid socket (5) is somehow slightly less exposed.
I cannot say the same thing about the engines: the speed is still 80 MGLT, so it's not true that the R750 engines offer greater speed than the old R200.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:59 am
by Turgidson
Even with brand new designs, they'd still sell a lot of toys. So sometimes I do wonder if the filmmakers themselves wanted to play on-screen with as-OT-as-possible toys...
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:03 am
by Rich C
From what I understand, it's a merchandising issue; for anything sold by Disney that is close enough to old Lucasfilm designs, Lucas gets a cut, so they change it the absolute minimum amount, while keeping the iconic shape mostly recognizable. That way they get to keep all the cash, but unfortunately they don't seem to be doing well actually selling them.
"Star Wars Resistance: Hasbro’s Next Financial Loss Hits Store Shelves"
There was apparently a similar thing with the new Star Trek movies and Paramount not wanting to pay royalties to CBS, or whoever, so everything had to change just enough.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:22 pm
by ual002
Well its funny you mention trek, because there's 1 person in particular who links both that I have some rather sharp opinions on. Namely his follow thru.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:23 pm
by capitanguinea
Turgidson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:47 pm
My initial understanding was that the B-Wing was a more modern, superior ship compared to the Y-Wing.
I don't think a resurrected Y-Wing v2 (or even v3, since the original was already a field mod) is a good idea... It's more a combination of design lazyness and misplaced fanfiction, like the filmmakers wanted to play with OT toys but had to slightly modernize them cuz these are sequel movies. Same as TIE/fo, TIE/sf, T70... At least the prequels made some real efforts looking for new designs. In the Disney trilogy, IMHO only the TIE Silencer really shines.
B-Wing is developed by a Mon Calamari and a Verpine joint effort, the Shantipole Project, and produced on limited basis as the first batch of the A-Wing Mark I. The New Republic found very not practical for human pilots to adapt to a such alien way of combat because only a few can exploit the best from it. The best B-Wing pilots were Sullustans, or force-users o force-sensitive, or insect-race or Mon Calamari, and they are too few after the war in the NR Military to ammass a consistent force of B-Wing fighter groups. This is the reason they developed the K-Wing, a massive strategic bomber, not ftl capable, but which was a true capital ship killer. The medium fighter-bomber role was occupied then by the evolution of the X-Wing Series, with XJ3 and successive. Koensayr actually stopped produce the Y-Wing soon after the Clone Wars, and only limitedly reprised a pirate version of it during the First Civil War, discontinuing altogheter after it, in Legends Canon (imho the TRUE canon), to devolve all they get on the K-Wing project which proved very successfull. By the way, on private and criminal hands the Y-Wing would be used for decades (well after the times of the Second Civil War, in the '50s)
If Verpine had been a most vocal part of NR Military and Calamari would not opt out en mass from the Starfighter Command to follow the Starfleet Command surely we would have improved versions of b-wing, and y-wing altogheter.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:28 pm
by capitanguinea
Rich C wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:03 am
From what I understand, it's a merchandising issue; for anything sold by Disney that is close enough to old Lucasfilm designs, Lucas gets a cut, so they change it the absolute minimum amount, while keeping the iconic shape mostly recognizable. That way they get to keep all the cash, but unfortunately they don't seem to be doing well actually selling them.
"Star Wars Resistance: Hasbro’s Next Financial Loss Hits Store Shelves"
There was apparently a similar thing with the new Star Trek movies and Paramount not wanting to pay royalties to CBS, or whoever, so everything had to change just enough.
If they buy a well loved product, then they change it to not pay to previous owner any royalties, they should not be surprise when the public do not want a new and divergent product. If I like the McDonald Hamburger and you try to sell me as such a brick between to halves of bread I simply would say "no". That is because in Disney they are too much of corporate mentality, they DO NOT love they products nor they know them - mantaining distance from it is the basis of the corporate moral void issues. So they do not understand their public, and for this, they will fail until they would do something about this. Such as pay a good storyteller as Filoni to do his job.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:05 am
by Jaeven
Turgidson wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:02 am
In the case of service life extensions, the exact same frame is kept but systems are incrementally updated. Keeping usage of ISDs, imperial TIEs or T65s (with a few internal upgrades) for quite a long time after Endor (like in EU/legends) would actually be exactly that.
And it's generally particularly true for big ships.
The designs shown in the sequel are not really "service life updates". They're merely design evolutions, strongly inspired by the old, but newly manufactured. And for example, IMHO, it doesn't make sense to use the T/F as basis, instead of the T/I, for the new FO fighters... Except to sell toys.
I would agree on the TIE Fighters, less so on the rest. Take the Resurgent for example. It keeps everything that made the ISD such a dominant ship, but improves it by bringing back aspects from the Venator and eliminating some of the obvious flaws and weak points that plagued the ISD.
In regards to the X-wing, I would imagine that, eventually, you hit a plateau with how much you can improve the old T-65. Imho, the T-70 and RZ-2s make perfect sense as minor, but improved evolutions of the original design. I definitely do agree with the argument you made in terms of the Y-wing, though.
capitanguinea wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:23 pm
Turgidson wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:47 pm
My initial understanding was that the B-Wing was a more modern, superior ship compared to the Y-Wing.
I don't think a resurrected Y-Wing v2 (or even v3, since the original was already a field mod) is a good idea... It's more a combination of design lazyness and misplaced fanfiction, like the filmmakers wanted to play with OT toys but had to slightly modernize them cuz these are sequel movies. Same as TIE/fo, TIE/sf, T70... At least the prequels made some real efforts looking for new designs. In the Disney trilogy, IMHO only the TIE Silencer really shines.
B-Wing is developed by a Mon Calamari and a Verpine joint effort, the Shantipole Project, and produced on limited basis as the first batch of the A-Wing Mark I. The New Republic found very not practical for human pilots to adapt to a such alien way of combat because only a few can exploit the best from it. The best B-Wing pilots were Sullustans, or force-users o force-sensitive, or insect-race or Mon Calamari, and they are too few after the war in the NR Military to ammass a consistent force of B-Wing fighter groups. This is the reason they developed the K-Wing, a massive strategic bomber, not ftl capable, but which was a true capital ship killer. The medium fighter-bomber role was occupied then by the evolution of the X-Wing Series, with XJ3 and successive. Koensayr actually stopped produce the Y-Wing soon after the Clone Wars, and only limitedly reprised a pirate version of it during the First Civil War, discontinuing altogheter after it, in Legends Canon (imho the TRUE canon), to devolve all they get on the K-Wing project which proved very successfull. By the way, on private and criminal hands the Y-Wing would be used for decades (well after the times of the Second Civil War, in the '50s)
If Verpine had been a most vocal part of NR Military and Calamari would not opt out en mass from the Starfighter Command to follow the Starfleet Command surely we would have improved versions of b-wing, and y-wing altogheter.
I really love the K-wing, but I'm not sure it was that much of a success. I know it's not entirely fair to judge it, seeing how it rarely appeared after the Black Fleet Crisis, but I feel as though the K-wing at the time it entered service was redudant. A pure capital ship bomber like the K-wing (even more so than the B-wing) makes sense if your fleet is outnumbered and cannot compete with the fleets of your enemy in terms of numbers. But by the time the K-wing entered service that was no longer the case; the NRDF was the dominant force in the galaxy by that point. There's also the incredibly odd aspect that the K-wing doesn't have a hyperdrive, which a complete antithesis to Rebel/NR doctrine.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:25 pm
by Rookie_One1
The New Republic was forced to transition to state strategy, as opposed to a stateless one that they were using as the Rebel Alliance. And if you see the K-Wing as a an extension of the capital ships, it make sense for the state strategy.
And considering the additional equipment they have (SLAM and shields) compared to the imperial equivalent, it make sense
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:30 pm
by Mark_Farlander
Phoenix Leader wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:22 am
Judging by the schematic Jaeven posted, the BTA-NR2 has a minor update over the BTL-A4 Y-Wing: the Astromech droid socket (5) is somehow slightly less exposed.
I cannot say the same thing about the engines: the speed is still 80 MGLT, so it's not true that the R750 engines offer greater speed than the old R200.
The BTL-A4 Y-wing actually has a speed of 70 MGLT (Canon). It's the old Legends material such as The Stele Chronicles that reports it as 80 MGLT.
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:58 pm
by Rookie_One1
Prefer the Legends material for that one
Re: Detailed look at the new Y-wing in Episode 9
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:48 pm
by capitanguinea
we should never forget that it is stated in Legends that the New Republic Economy was quite broke in all her life. The dream of the Rebel Alliance became a nightmare when it came to the need to assemble a military, and pay the related bills because no system was voluntarily give them the money to do this and credits remain controlled by the single Systems. NR Military was more a confederacy of state each contribuiting with his own assets. K-Wing were produced mainly by Fondor and Commenor by Koensayr, and FreiTek build mainly on Coruscant, and this is the reason why NR was more rich of X-Wing variants and K-Wing. By the way the enormous surplus of ex-imperial surplus made redundant expand military production - many old starfighter were refitted with shields and upgraded. So K-Wing was a stable presence with TIE/ln Starfighter with shields, and TIE/Interceptors with Shields and Hyperdrive systems. NR was intended to be naively a peaceful government. The Vong put the label of foolishness in all of this garbage, and the Galactic Alliance rapidly reverted in a more centralized and militarized state similar to the New Order: with the result to alienate a third of state members, and making the paved ways to the II Galactic Civil Wars (where K-Wing still fly and fight!
)