Upgrade causing OP turbolasers

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Upgrade causing OP turbolasers

SteelRainSR
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Post by SteelRainSR » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:39 pm

Hi all, not sure if this is the right place for this but i need help.

I've just started playing and installed this mod (which is great otherwise btw) and then got stuck on mission 10 convoy assualt. The issue is with the turbolasers coming off the strike cruiser and the armed freighters. They seem to be 100% accurate and massivly damaging. I lose half my shields if i even level out to fire for literally half a second. In addition, all my allied X and Y wings are killed within about two minutes after the dogfight with the TIEs is over.

I've uninstalled the mod and breezed through the mission with no problems. I'd love to use the mod but this is obviously unplayable, can anyone help me out with a fix?

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Post by Driftwood » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:32 am

Fly better. And no, I'm really not being a dick or flippant for the sake of it; I've played for years and have had lots of practice (though fairly rusty now I don't have time to play much), like anything the more hours you log the easier things are and you learn to counter or anticipate the problems you are describing with taking hits from capital ships. And incidentally the smaller they are, the harsher they are to deal with. Big ships are easy provided you have enough TIME to whittle them down.

Think! Use your brain. If your missiles are getting shot down, change tactics. If you're taking fire, randomize your flight patterns more, increase your distance from the offending ships. Figure out approach angles, hit and run tactics, ship weaknesses.

The CRV for instance has a blind spot directly behind the engine block at a certain distance, you can sit there and dump lasers and warheads into it with impunity if nothing else is shooting at you and you can withstand the engine damage (bump up your shield and laser regen to max).
Every ship has some kind of weakness, even if it's just you popping off a couple shots and withdrawing repeatedly, eventually you will wear them down if their regen isn't outpacing your damage.
Dumbfire your warheads, predict their path from about 2-3km out from the target, learn the rate of travel your warheads have and fire the appropriate distance and angle ahead of the moving target (if it is). Stationary target EASY PEASY. Incidentally, the same tactic can be used to snipe TIE formations or other ships at range as well but it takes a lot of practice. The first rebel training mission where you go out with Olin Garn to destroy the station, the carrack (you don't even have to target it and you can kill it with this method while you are stationary outside the gun platform's range), and the convoy you can actually snipe BOTH skipray blastboats and at least one if not both gunboats that hyper in after destroying the skiprays, without them evading your missiles, shooting them down, or even taking fire; I took out all four ships and the CRK without taking fire or having to evade once. At about 4km, visually; yes I did have to go back and re-arm however before going to the convoy.

Take down shields and focus fire on ENGINE TEXTURES, many if not all ships can have their engines independently disabled by mere laser fire if you don't have ion cannons, pick it off at range at your leisure.

Container trains can be disabled if you take out the engine pod, or otherwise break the chain of containers. Also, don't waste multiple warheads on these. Bear in mind, the explosion of each individual container is cumulative and results in damage to close objects*. Lasers will suffice.

*Rebel training mission 1, destroy the station and ignore the containers, the resulting explosion takes those out for you.

You can even get enemy fighters tailing you to inflict collateral damage to larger ships by skimming their hulls, or even trick the fighters into crashing into the hull!

Some ships have destroy-able shield generators or other important components that can give you an edge. For instance, the container transports as I recall (could) have destroy-able turrets, shoot them to get them to stop shooting at you. While they don't have blind spots, their engine glow textures ARE A WEAK POINT once the shields are down, pop it till you see visible damage and move on to a different ship. (Most engine textures act similarly ingame on freighter+ sized ships)

Another suggestion is STAY AWAY FROM THE STRIKE CRUISER; DO NOT ENGAGE! Unless of course you've already taken out the convoy and you've met the mission completion criteria; and ONLY if you're feeling lucky and haven't sustained any hull damage; consider the fact it also has a missile launcher, don't target it. Honestly you're better off leaving it alone either way especially on HARD difficulty.
Take out or disable all the easy ships first. Bulk freighters, take out shields and shoot the engine glows. Mobeq transports, same thing. Kill the engine pods of the container trains, let those sit until all moving threats/priority targets are disabled or destroyed.

ORDER the X-Wings to attack the TIE fighters, Y-Wings too if you can (I don't recall). Keep everybody away from the strike cruiser. Have them attack the "softer targets".

TARGET the TIE fighters at max range, loose maybe one torpedo at them outside of their firing range and then move at a different vector to engage the convoy. Often you can take out 2-4 TIEs simultaneously since they will not usually try to evade your missile, are grouped closer together, angle to face and fire at you, thus not intercepting your warhead incidentally in the process.

I've beaten this mission on hard solo myself, so I know it's do-able. Alternatively consider turning down your difficulty to EASY. Most missions I can beat currently on HARD, but admittedly there are a few I turn down to easy to get through (usually without issue afterwards).

Hell, worst case just use piloteer to skip to the next mission. Boo hoo. (Uninstalling the upgrade is overkill solution wise to your mission progression issues)

Otherwise this is a potential issue with additional hardpoints that may not have been originally present on the original opts. The container ships are particularly irritating if you don't dumb fire your warheads, which AI craft don't know how to do. This is a known issue and should be patched in the next update, I presume.

Another factor to this is also the AI skill level combined with CPU processing power of modern systems that was not accounted for or considered when XWA was released, this in particular relates to AI accuracy and overall computing; in this case it's the enemy's point defense capabilities when defending from warheads. One thing you could do is also to load up AlliEd, open this offending mission and dumb down the AI for the strike cruiser and the freighters, and possibly increase the AI, shield charge, or something to add to the Y-wings to make them a bit more survivable.

Before you complain "Oh the game is unplayable" again in the future, consider the fact that we've been trying to work out these issues in the past, and one thing our team is lacking is full time mission testers and EDITORs. The reality is that we're still learning after two decades that sometimes due to the age of the engine and unforseen technical issues that sometimes result in balance factors or game bugs that are frankly impossible to predict and plan for. We do our best to catch these, but sometimes they do get missed and we always appreciate the bug reports, especially if it seems to be a consistent issue between users.

The idea of the project is to 1:1 or better update of the ship models and textures, primarily, to be more screen and/or lore accurate where appropriate. Generally this does not result in any issues, except for example the increase of the SSD to 17-19km versions (in one or two missions that have since been fixed), the container transports (one or two additional hardpoints added, since been removed as I recall), laser increase mod (since discovered entirely removed and eradicated), and the most unforseeable being the AI capabilties/processing due to modern hardware specs (which at this time is entirely beyond our control); all we can do is try to manipulate the missions to accomodate the changes better if possible.

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Post by Jaeven » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:11 am

That's odd. I was under the impression that the Strike Cruiser was bugged in that it didn't fire its turbolasers.

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Post by General_Trageton » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:13 am

Git gud XD
BTW there‘s a whole discussion about that mission here:
http://www.xwaupgrade.com/phpBB3/viewto ... =1&t=12288
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Post by SteelRainSR » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:23 am

Driftwood, it's obvious you work on this mod and that I've somewhat offended you with my choice of words. I certainly don't mean to disparage anyone's work on something I appreciate other than this issue, although unplayable would seem apt if one of your suggestions is to skip the mission. Your post is almost entirely unhelpful to the technical issue I'm having of a TEXTURE MOD modifying the difficulty of certain missions.
Having read the other thread the answer would seem to be known issue with hardpoints and to wait for the patch, not several paragraphs of things I've already tried for several hours in attempt to "Git gud" before coming to the realization that it's a technical issue.
General_Trageton, although snarky your response is much more helpful. Thank you.

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Post by Driftwood » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:13 pm

As I said, it's possible to beat the mission even with the known issues I've acknowledged and referenced. I have given you over a decade worth of tactical and technical observations on how to beat this mission under current circumstances without the patch fix that is not available yet to my knowledge.

No it is not ideal, but it's funny to me that after all these years of having the container transports being out in current state, OP as they may be, people have successfully completed the mission, and only now is "everything broken and unplayable" due to (insert opt that has been released for several years now and is only now seemingly an issue).
And admittedly to beat it myself I had to turn the difficulty down from hard to easy to progress through this one. Skipping is a realistic option if your skills aren't up to the task.

Furthermore I referenced the known hardpoint issue causing the balance problem, couldn't remember where the thread was however. (Thanks GT). Again though you can still beat the mission with it present.

Additionally the entire bottom half of my post was all about technical issues that may be contributing to your, or other yet inexperienced issues to try and illustrate what complications we are dealing with in an area of development we have no control over fundamentally since it's a PC hardware issue in nature regarding processing capabilities.

And obviously it's not just a texture mod as often some ships are modified beyond pure cosmetics for them to be closer to "fluff", at times, like with the container transports is met with unintended consequences when combined with modern hardware capabilities that we are now becoming aware of and can look to addressing via patches.

I'm not offended in any way, but I've helped you with what I can at this time. Dont like my advice or you cant make the tactics work for you, fine, whatever. Wait for a balance patch, fix the mission yourself by changing the ai or the ship used causing the problem in the meantime. Skip the mission.

Known issue, hope it's fixed soon, shame its frustrating you.

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Post by Darksaber » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:28 pm

@Driftwood, you do come across as quiet aggressive with what and how you type, I know I can't talk, I've done the same the past.

But if your trying to help someone, try to think of yourself in the same position when you first started editing XWA, you probably knew nothing, so asked loads of questions or tried figuring it out yourself. This guy is in the same boat, he's trying to figure it out, but lecturing someone isn't the same as helping someone!
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Post by General_Trageton » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:05 pm

Who are you and what have you done to Darksaber? :D :p
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Post by Darksaber » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:19 pm

Older, not so wiser though

Oh I'm his genetically altered clone :) or clown :D
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Post by ual002 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:05 pm

I find this thread amusingly astonishing, between atypical responses of Driftwood and Darksaber. I will however say they are both right.

The mod definitely changes things balance wise. Larger ships hit really hard when they connect, and sometimes its nearly impossible to bring down a large ship by locking warheads. Personally I find that a bit annoying, however as a mission maker, with a handful of exceptions, setting the larger ships AI to the lowest skill level reduces their rate of fire down to a a manageable level that will allow some of your locked warheads to penetrate. Generally though it seems like most of the vanilla missions have cap ship skill levels set too high for you to do anything but dumb fire. And then some ships even at their lowest skill are total danger loafs.

While I would never say "Git Gud", as that is a pet peeve of mine, the overall sentiment is valid. You can get pretty good, even me as a casual player more in love with the idea of being a TIE pilot than actually having the skill to be one, I have over time acclimated to DSUCP to the point that I cannot play without it. Alternatively, there are a ton of guys floating around that care less about the immersion and more about the multiplayer competition and use every trick to turn tighter or fly faster to get an edge, they too seem to swear by these changes. Generally the mods add well more in features than you lose in ease of play.

Flying shield-less TIE fighters in this "environment" that the upgrade packs create... when I make single missions... they make you REALLY have to fly the perfect line, know exactly your strengths and weaknesses and remember that you really need to use swarm tactics and realize you cant take a hard hit. Its like being in a swarm of aggressive, squealing Pomeranians with laser teeth and glass jaws.

You'll get there, give it time. Plan your attacks. That convoy mission is still a total bitch though.
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Post by Driftwood » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:14 pm

I can admit I'm unusually frustrated this week. I've been sick the last two weeks and it's now to the point its costing me time and money. Nothing seems to be going right at work, I'm barely sleeping, and most issues that are coming up online or IRL I'm either not in a position to fix due to time constraints or circumstances entirely (though perhaps I perceive they should be in my control) out of my control and I'm feeling entirely useless. I'm positive that some of this is translating into my posts depending on context. Its granted no excuse for potential overreactions past or future, but it's a factor if anybody would like an explanation.

Since my register date I've played XWA heavily, probably in the thousands of hours. I've played competitively against some of the best multiplayer pilots and ranged from being chaff to the slaughter, to holding my own, and even surpassing in some instances.
I am familiar with many game features or tactics to approach these scenarios than others. I've also been expected by my clan when it was active to excel and train others to do so.

2013-2016 I was in a leadership role in a highly intensive online sim group and was expected to achieve, maintain, and train my subordinates to an expected level or they did not qualify and had to retrain or wash out; most if not all of them surpassed my ability and went on to their own leadership and training roles within the group and I maintained a reputation for being exceedingly fair but harsh with my expectations while maintaining a professional environment where standards being met that still carries on there today even though I am not active any longer due to personal issues requiring my stepping away.

Since I cannot functionally assist in this game related issue at this time, the best I figured I could via my initial post was throw out some tactical suggestions under the assumption that this person may be new and inexperienced as well as unfamiliar with some of the technical issues we are experiencing on the dev side of things.

My intention isn't to lecture (beyond the instructional definition), but give some as I see, critical information in an attempt to assist. Perhaps I could have worded things differently initially.

I'm not trying to defend myself here either way, but as I do respect the opinions and positions of those who have posted on this thread (and others) I felt an explanation was in order.

And @ Darksaber I remember agitating you over the years due to my newness and I'm sure I probably still send you into fits from time to time with my questions and suggestions behind the scenes. So we've all been there once upon a time as you say. Obviously sometimes I need to work on the how, if not necessarily the what I say. Thanks for pointing this out.

@ steel rain look man I'm willing to help out any way I can, and if you want to chat about anything on discord or steam PM me your info and maybe I can be a little more productive to helping you out this weekend in some fashion. If you install the DSCUP 2.6 with the multiplayer coop module and following individual craft updates (and associated patches) perhaps we can tackle the mission together and try to come up with some in game or back end solutions to put forward as potential fixes. Just bear in mind there will always be some constructive criticism dealing with me, and as you can see when I try to instruct there isn't a while lot of walking on eggshells.

As Ual pointed out my first post was somewhat atypical and I've explained the likely reason why, I'm having a rough time of it lately so don't take anything personally.

Edited for clarity/grammar/spelling issues (time/mobile constraints).
Last edited by Driftwood on Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by SteelRainSR » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:21 pm

Thank you for the comment Darksaber, that's pretty much my take.
Driftwood, I came here with basically no knowledge of the game and no knowledge of any of you poeple or much of how your mod works. I was looking for some pretty simple answers.

Am I right that this is a technical issue? Yes

Is there anything I can do about it short of learning to program stuff myself? Not really, wait for the patch.

Instead the first response I get, from a team member no less several paragraphs of patronizing, overly defensive ranting followed by yes maybe there are some issues but I'm the ahole for having an opinion. I should just become an expert at the game before voicing a problem on your help board.

It's not a good look for you or the community. It really doesn't make me want to participate at all, much less ask for help again.
Maybe your just an abrasive person, and that's fine. Like I said I don't know any of you, but perhaps you should think about how your representing what your a part of especially to someone asking for help.

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Post by General_Trageton » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:46 pm

Allright let‘s all take a step back and take a deep breath.
@SteelRain I apologize for my git gud jest, one never knows how things like that come across even with smileys.

Now for Driftwood, I can read some explaination and apology from his last post, so firing back as you do now I would consider just as uncalled for. You can’t judge a community because one of them is having a bad time. So chill out, both of you, don‘t make me pull out my frying pan.

Now for the matter at hand, seeing that there are now at least three topics independently about overpowered upgraded ships I‘m led to believe they may have a point beyond new players lacking experience and old players loosing their edge over the years. I for my part will take a look at the weapons setup old vs. new to see if the matter is related to the ships themselves or something else.

I do remember that there was a hook that increased the possible number of shots that could be fired at a time. Maybe there‘s a connection here.
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Post by SteelRainSR » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:00 pm

@Driftwood I understand you were trying to help, it just didn't come off well.
I'm sorry about your personal shit, I hope it works out.

I'm often overly annoyed with game mechanics that I view as unfair or unreasonable. Regardless of if I can deal with it or not it gets on my nerves. Dealing with that, then replaying the same mission for several hours trying to figure out if it just something I'm doing or not. Then coming here and getting that response really hit me the wrong way.

I may take you up on the multiplayer thing, I wasn't aware people still played XWA multiplayer.

@General_Trageton I wasn't concerned with your comment, but thanks for the apology.

Your multiple shots idea jives with what I saw. It appeared to me that the armed freighters, specifically the three sided ones were firing triple or quad bursts.

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Post by Darksaber » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:06 pm

I'm staying out of this
General_Trageton wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:46 pm
I do remember that there was a hook that increased the possible number of shots that could be fired at a time. Maybe there‘s a connection here.
@GT It wasn't a Hook it was just an Offset which Increase the max number of simultaneous weapons from 64 to 256

I included it in I think in DUSCPv2.5 and XWAUCPv1.5, but when I realised what it did I removed, I never included it with v2.6 and v1.6

But it still might be in XWAExePatcher, in which case it can still be applied to the exe, if this is the case then it's the users own fault.
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Post by General_Trageton » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:22 pm

Ah didn‘t know you took it out again. I‘m not big on reading readmes XD
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Post by SteelRainSR » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:10 pm

@Darksaber so is this something i can fix then? Mine was a clean install of 1.6, idk if you were talking about someone installing 1.6 over 1.5 or is it some install option that I did or didn't select?

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Post by ual002 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:24 pm

Remember ladies and gents, we all like to fly make believe space ships. And some of us take it way too seriously... [points at own profile image]

I think we can get back on track now, @general_trageton thank you for taking some steps forward looking into some of this. I will admit that there may have been an unintentional difficulty shift over there years as we focused on flash over substance. This is coming from someone who was simply an observer for a long time since the infancy of this site. I myself have made several typing errors in just the frontend descriptions alone. And we are regularly finding blatant issues like for instance the strike cruisers. We are human and fallible and don't necessarily have a rigid QA process.

Being that there seems to be a resurgence of popularity of these older Lucasarts games, which is I imagine as a result of the depth of their content, over say the mile wide but inch deep content provided in star wars titles by companies like EA, I think we can begin now as a community to take pride in making sure the depth that we help improve in this game is precise wherever possible. This means reporting more regularly and openly a lot of bugs and issues with the current state of these packs.

My point is... even if we don't think its a bug, maybe we should treat a report as such until such time we determine the effect was intended rather than accidental.
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Post by Darksaber » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:40 pm

SteelRainSR wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:10 pm
@Darksaber so is this something i can fix then? Mine was a clean install of 1.6, idk if you were talking about someone installing 1.6 over 1.5 or is it some install option that I did or didn't select?
No you have to uninstall v1.5 before you can install v1.6, so no worries there

Which freighters are you referring too, container transports perhaps
this oneImage???

Right I've fixed the Strike Cruiser, it just has the same amount of Lasers as the original Strike Cruiser, DTM updated it recently, and added more lasers that it should of had

Same goes for the Container Transport I added more lasers than it originally had, so I've fixed that also

Download this StrikeCruiserContainerTransportFix_2019_09_26.rar extract the Opts and replace the opts in the flightmodels folder

Then test, hopefully the mission won't be so hard
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Post by SteelRainSR » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:29 pm

@ Darksaber that's the one, I'll give it a test run and let you know

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Post by SteelRainSR » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:05 pm

@ Darksaber that seems to have fixed my issue. Seems much more fair, you still get nailed by them if your not smart about it but it's not quite as bad and doesn't murder all the AI instantly anymore. Thanks for the quick fix.

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Post by Darksaber » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:11 pm

No quick fix really the Container Transport was mentioned a while back in another post but forgot to post the fix, the Strike Cruiser was edited a while ago, but didn't know it was an issue as DTM's version only had around 4 more hardpoints than the original.

Like I said they both have exactly the same number of hardpoints as the original vanilla opts :D
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Post by Driftwood » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:01 am

General_Trageton wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:46 pm
Allright let‘s all take a step back and take a deep breath.
@SteelRain I apologize for my git gud jest, one never knows how things like that come across even with smileys.
Honestly I thought you were directing that post at me in a tongue in cheek manner.
ual002 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:05 pm
I find this thread amusingly astonishing, between atypical responses of Driftwood and Darksaber. I will however say they are both right.
Your post did incline me to take a minute and self evaluate why I'm coming across in an unintended manner, hence my following post immediately after, so thanks.
Darksaber wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:06 pm
I'm staying out of this.
I don't see why, you did have a valid point regarding the tone of my initial post.
SteelRainSR wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:00 pm
@Driftwood I understand you were trying to help, it just didn't come off well.
As far as I'm concerned we're good, thanks for the feedback.

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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:48 am

FWIW, on normal difficulty, I had no problem with this mission, either before the recent patch (2x powerful container transports, bugged strike cruiser) or after. I generally don't play on hard. It's possible that the mechanic of demoting your allies/promoting your enemies one AI skill level (differential of 2) results in the balance being a bit unstable.

FYI, like the Corellian Corvette, the strike cruiser has a blind spot. It's just behind the bridge; after killing the TIEs, I just park there and blast it until it dies, then mop up whatever remains of the convoy.

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