Family Business 2, Emon's Lesson: Weapons

Here we can have in-depth discussions about which missions need to be adjusted because they are broken either by original design or by XWA models.
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Family Business 2, Emon's Lesson: Weapons

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BattleDog
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Post by BattleDog » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:47 pm

The flight path of the Sabre requires adjustment in both regions, with the gunner turret being in the "correct" orientation now some of the containers in Target Area 2 are out of the turret's arc of fire because the range of movement is sell for and aft than it is port and starboard. Additionally, Emon seems unable to hit the containers himself, his shots just go below them, presumably because his FRS lacks Gun Convergence.

Particularly troublesome are CN/L: 12 and CN/B 18.

This is a problem in Target Area 1 but it's not game breaking - just frustrating
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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:49 pm

How odd. I played through this mission a few days ago and had no issues. I'll fly it again later today, see if I have similar issues.

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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:04 pm

Hello, this problem:
BattleDog wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:47 pm
Emon seems unable to hit the containers himself, his shots just go below them, presumably because his FRS lacks Gun Convergence.

Particularly troublesome are CN/L: 12 and CN/B 18.
had been discussed here: https://www.xwaupgrade.com/phpBB3/viewt ... 10&t=12041
I don't judge tactics. The Battle is the best and only Judge.

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the_stag
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Post by the_stag » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:05 pm

I played through this mission last week and had the same issues as BattleDog. I quit and played it a second time to see if it was repeatable and the same issue happened again. I ended up getting around it by forcing a docking (Shift + D) with the nearest container. That started the YT-1300 moving and I was able to destroy the container. I did that (intentionally) with a few more containers and it was successful every time. Not that this should be necessary, but it did allow me to complete the mission.

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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:05 pm

A patch had been released, but it was not included in the XWAUCP v1.6.
I don't judge tactics. The Battle is the best and only Judge.

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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:18 pm

This problem:
BattleDog wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:47 pm
The flight path of the Sabre requires adjustment in both regions, with the gunner turret being in the "correct" orientation now some of the containers in Target Area 2 are out of the turret's arc of fire because the range of movement is sell for and aft than it is port and starboard.
has nothing to do with the mission. It depends on how the turret lines up.
I'm afraid it has something to do with odd settings coming with YT-1300 Download v2.0
I never experienced the problem before installing it, but now I have the same problem too.
I don't judge tactics. The Battle is the best and only Judge.

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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:31 pm

However, the mission B0M2 has another minor problem: the order "Drop off/Deploy" is bugged. This does not depend on the mission, it's the order that simply cannot be "split".

I post what I wrote in the file "Orders (Basic) " for the AlliED section of the Mod-Wiki
Drop off/Deploy: the leader of the Flight Group drops off the designated FG, releasing one member of such FG at a time. The second box indicates the number of the deployed FG. You need to input 1 less than the number shown on the main bar of the datapad since FG #1 is actually FG #0.
The leader of the FG travels to the first enabled waypoint before releasing the designated FG.
If such first waypoint is Waypoint 1, this works regardless of the fact it also serves to determine the hyperspace-exit vector or not. All enabled waypoints after the first one are ignored.
Note that this order cannot be cut: it is not possible to release a part of the designated FG and the remaining part at 2 different times, therefore it is advisable that the player does not give orders to a craft performing this order in case it belongs to player’s Global Unit.
You simply cannot give orders to the Andrasta while she is releasing the drones. FRS Andrasta releases the drones through 2 "Drop off/Deploy" orders.
If you give an order to the Andrasta, but she didn't finish releasing all the 3 drones of a drone Flight Group, then she will never release the remaining ones.
In such case you will have to refly the mission.

Edit: At the time of the release of the XWAUCP v1.6 I was unaware of this. I investigated this thing when I wrote the files of the Orders.
I edited the mission some months ago during the lockdown to make all the satellites arrive with an Arrival condition different from "FRS Andrasta must be dropped off", and of course I also edited the orders of the Andrasta.
This made the satellites arrive still through "via" Andrasta, but decoupling their arrival from what the Andrasta is doing.

Since this minor problem has nothing to do with the reported bug, I will only upload the updated mission if asked by the moderators.
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BattleDog
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Post by BattleDog » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:23 pm

Mark_Farlander wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:18 pm
This problem:
BattleDog wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:47 pm
The flight path of the Sabre requires adjustment in both regions, with the gunner turret being in the "correct" orientation now some of the containers in Target Area 2 are out of the turret's arc of fire because the range of movement is sell for and aft than it is port and starboard.
has nothing to do with the mission. It depends on how the turret lines up.
I'm afraid it has something to do with odd settings coming with YT-1300 Download v2.0
I never experienced the problem before installing it, but now I have the same problem too.
In XWA the turret was rotated 90 degrees along it's Z axis, so that in order for the turret to point forward you had to turn left or right ( depending on whether it's the dorsal or ventral turret). In the latest version of the YT-1300 the turret is correctly orientated, so that you now point "down" to aim forwards. The problem is that the turret does not traverse as far in it's Y axis as it's X axis, so now the turret can't fire dead forwards.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is why the turret was rotated "wrongly" to begin with. Aside from a game-play issue this also present a logic problem - how can the turrets ever fire forwards, even from the cockpit?
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Jaeven
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Post by Jaeven » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:43 pm

Mark_Farlander wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:18 pm
This problem:
BattleDog wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:47 pm
The flight path of the Sabre requires adjustment in both regions, with the gunner turret being in the "correct" orientation now some of the containers in Target Area 2 are out of the turret's arc of fire because the range of movement is sell for and aft than it is port and starboard.
has nothing to do with the mission. It depends on how the turret lines up.
I'm afraid it has something to do with odd settings coming with YT-1300 Download v2.0
I never experienced the problem before installing it, but now I have the same problem too.
Can you confirm this is the result of the YT-1300 2.0?

I’ll have to test this later when I get home.

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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:49 pm

I also installed other OPTs over the XWAUCP v1.6. Now I'm going to uninstall the game and reinstall it again to make sure it's the YT-1300 causing the problem.
However, without any new OPT installed, the problem was not present.
I don't judge tactics. The Battle is the best and only Judge.

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BattleDog
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Post by BattleDog » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:15 am

It is, and I've found the exact issue.

In vanilla the turret arcs are defined as 12040, 17308, they need to be changed to 17308, 12040 on all turrets. This will allow the turrets to fire forward again, it also reduces the amount of clipping when the turret it rotated far left or far right to fairly negligible levels.

This is all the result of the turret being rotated 90 degrees, it means the turret arcs have to be flipped X,Y.
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Trevor
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Post by Trevor » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:04 pm

On the subject of YT1300 Turrets, why are we lying on our side when looking forward? In the same vein, we are sitting with out head out the window when looking left, and our arse out the window when looking right?

I assume this is a limitation of the game, can it be fixed to actually work like a turret.

oh... ok, my bad... the falcon is not like a WWII turret


when looking straight out you do have your back to the ship
Image
specifically, looking "Down" is front, left is left, right is right, "up" is back
Image

trev

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Will T
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Post by Will T » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:10 pm

Yeah, that's..... exactly what's being talked about.

To recap the thread, TG got the cockpit right in the sense that, when in the top turret, you are sat at 90 degrees in the vertical to the position in the cockpit, facing upward to the ship's plane.

But they got it wrong in the sense that down should be forward, as you acknowledged in your post; and instead right looks forward while looking down is actually looking to port.


But the most recent XWAU Falcon corrected that. It rotated the turret 90 degrees in the horizontal plane so that 'down' is correctly forward.


The issue that BattleDog has found is that the turret apparently doesn't have equal movement in each axis, so the x movement is greater than the y movement. This means you can look 'right' far enough to fire fully forward in the TG implementation, but once rotated in the XWAU implementation the y movement is not far enough to cover the same arc. So the XWAU y arc needs to be the same size as the TG x arc.
BattleDog wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:15 am
It is, and I've found the exact issue.

In vanilla the turret arcs are defined as 12040, 17308, they need to be changed to 17308, 12040 on all turrets. This will allow the turrets to fire forward again, it also reduces the amount of clipping when the turret it rotated far left or far right to fairly negligible levels.

This is all the result of the turret being rotated 90 degrees, it means the turret arcs have to be flipped X,Y.
Really good find, by the way. Sounds like a relatively easy to fix to implement, if I'm reading right.

I'm glad we don't have to completely shift all the container targets or re-path the Sabra.
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Post by JAA3rd » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:13 pm

the_stag wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:05 pm
I played through this mission last week and had the same issues as BattleDog. I quit and played it a second time to see if it was repeatable and the same issue happened again. I ended up getting around it by forcing a docking (Shift + D) with the nearest container. That started the YT-1300 moving and I was able to destroy the container. I did that (intentionally) with a few more containers and it was successful every time. Not that this should be necessary, but it did allow me to complete the mission.
So, I'm able to get around the turret rotation by using the above advice and attempting to dock w/containers. Once they're all destroyed and the mission continues to the casino navpoint the autopilot flies in the opposite direction of the navpoint, so hyperspace isn't possible. The navpoint is targeted and in field of view, but distance increases like the ship is in reverse.

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