XWAU Balancing - Feedback needed

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Re: XWAU Balancing - Feedback needed

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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:10 pm

The other effect of Hard difficulty is to make all craft components shielded, regardless of the team they belong to.
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Ace Antilles

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Post by Ace Antilles » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:25 pm

Let's try not to stray too far off topic. Simple question time.

Apart from the Opts mentioned in the first list, is there any other Opts that you believe to be causing massive issues in completing the campaign?
Because either they are bigger than the TG, tougher or get some other issues maybe?

Thanks for your feedback so far.
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Trevor
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Post by Trevor » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:38 pm

keiranhalcyon7 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:59 pm
The game difficulty levels are easy, medium, and hard. Medium uses the AI levels as written in the mission files. Easy demotes all the enemy FGs one AI level, while promoting friendly FGs one AI level (subject to clamping at minimum/maximum level). Hard does the opposite. For that reason, I believe medium was probably the most rigorously playtested at TG, and should be considered the default play mode.
Thanks Keiran, THIS was the info I wanted :)

Ok, sorry Ace, Back to topic at hand, but at least I now know to test at medium to get what was designed.
Actually, would this info be good in the Wiki?

Trev

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keiranhalcyon7
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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:08 pm

I'm not sure if XWAUP has touched them, but I consider the Zero-G Stormtroopers in general and the E-Web in T7M4 to hit high above their weight. I think it would be worth checking the vanilla balance.

It could also be that you encounter these opponents while flying YT transports, which have been upsized, and are thus easier to hit.

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Ace Antilles

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Post by Ace Antilles » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:11 pm

keiranhalcyon7 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:08 pm
I'm not sure if XWAUP has touched them, but I consider the Zero-G Stormtroopers in general and the E-Web in T7M4 to hit high above their weight. I think it would be worth checking the vanilla balance.

It could also be that you encounter these opponents while flying YT transports, which have been upsized, and are thus easier to hit.
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That was the last Opt I expected to be mentioned lol :lachtot: I have no idea if they are OP or not.
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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:07 am

I just wish to say one thing about the YT-1300 Corellian transport: the doubled laser hardpoints in turret surely made Azzameen missions easier, but this also solved a consistency issue.
As far as I remember in the vanilla version of the game the turret fired 4 laser shots per second when linked to forward position, and only 2 laser shots per second in autofire mode.
Now the turret of the YT-1300 Corellian transport fires 4 laser shots per second regardless of the settings (linked to forward position, autofire mode or defensive fire mode).
So now it's more consistent.
I don't judge tactics. The Battle is the best and only Judge.

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Will T
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Post by Will T » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 am

Mark_Farlander wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:07 am
I just wish to say one thing about the YT-1300 Corellian transport: the doubled laser hardpoints in turret surely made Azzameen missions easier, but this also solved a consistency issue.
As far as I remember in the vanilla version of the game the turret fired 4 laser shots per second when linked to forward position, and only 2 laser shots per second in autofire mode.
Now the turret of the YT-1300 Corellian transport fires 4 laser shots per second regardless of the settings (linked to forward position, autofire mode or defensive fire mode).
So now it's more consistent.
That's not an inconsistency, that's a balancing measure.

The turret is faster firing forward, but you have to actually aim it. You have to fly at your target.

It's slower in autofire, but you don't have to aim, it can fire anywhere around you and it lets you evade return fire.

Without that trade off, there is literally no reason to not use autofire for everything you're attacking. It also means that attacking cap ships is trivially easy, because it's possible to fly in a way where you can hit them but they can't hit you. With four lasers per turret, you burn through them insanely fast so there isn't even time for other fighters to present a problem while you're doing that.


Honestly, even in vanilla the fact that the auto turrets are so accurate is a bit of a cheese factor. There is zero reason to ever use a turret yourself in a mission because you will never be as good as the AI firing them, and the AI flying the ship will never be as good as you.
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ual002
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Post by ual002 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:05 am

The fact that all fire is accurate and only just lags behind is a cheese factor. There is 0 random dispersal.
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keiranhalcyon7
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Post by keiranhalcyon7 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:49 pm

Will T wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 am
Without that trade off, there is literally no reason to not use autofire for everything you're attacking.
Well, you dispute that you could be a better shot than the AI, but the other main reason to man the turret yourself is that the autofire can't target subcomponents. The only time I recall when this makes a significant difference, though, is strafing the Executor in T7M2.

@ual002 - The targeting AI is old enough to drink; I think it's worthy of some forgiveness. :)

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Post by BattleDog » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:57 am

I did some testing of the YT-1300 against the Murrian Transport just now - ran two furballs each where I faced off in each transport against 7 Tie Fighters. First time in the Murrian I got 59 kills, second time I got 66. First time in the YT-1300 I got 70, second time 80. This is despite the YT-1300 having only a single turret where the Murrian has two. Both handle the same and are the same speed, I had the gunner do all the work whilst I just diverted the forward guns to the engines.

Clearly, the faster rate of fire on the YT-1300 is a big advantage, basically any TIE that flew over the top of the ship exploded. Additionally, the YT-1300 has two forward guns instead of one now - meaning that in addition to a Gatling Gun on the roof it also has twice as much gun energy to siphon to shields, or can fire for twice as long before emptying the capacitors.
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theonegalen
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Post by theonegalen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 am

I also want to point out that in some missions, I believe there are Flight Groups that don't show up on Easy or Normal levels, but only on Hard. This is always a pain when I play, because I prefer to have as many ships to fight as possible, but the idea of having to batter down capship shields before you're able to do component damage is *annoying.* Especially since capship turrets are so good at destroying incoming missiles - something not supported in almost any canon or Legends source.

Regarding the "change missions" vs "change opts" question, I would generally be on the side of changing the missions, because I want the most improved experience possible. However, that would seem to be the more difficult and time consuming solution.

I wish I had gotten back into XWA at the beginning of the COVID lockdown, because I could have put a bunch of time into obsessively rebalancing and mission editing instead of watching a bunch of anime and sitting on my butt.

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BattleDog
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Post by BattleDog » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:24 am

Realistically, the game was never meant to be "seriously" played on Hard; the extra Flight Groups are designed to unbalance the mission.

The game needs to be balanced on Medium.
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Post by Phoenix Leader » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:36 pm

Will T wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 am
Mark_Farlander wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:07 am
I just wish to say one thing about the YT-1300 Corellian transport: the doubled laser hardpoints in turret surely made Azzameen missions easier, but this also solved a consistency issue.
As far as I remember in the vanilla version of the game the turret fired 4 laser shots per second when linked to forward position, and only 2 laser shots per second in autofire mode.
Now the turret of the YT-1300 Corellian transport fires 4 laser shots per second regardless of the settings (linked to forward position, autofire mode or defensive fire mode).
So now it's more consistent.
That's not an inconsistency, that's a balancing measure.

The turret is faster firing forward, but you have to actually aim it. You have to fly at your target.

It's slower in autofire, but you don't have to aim, it can fire anywhere around you and it lets you evade return fire.

Without that trade off, there is literally no reason to not use autofire for everything you're attacking. It also means that attacking cap ships is trivially easy, because it's possible to fly in a way where you can hit them but they can't hit you. With four lasers per turret, you burn through them insanely fast so there isn't even time for other fighters to present a problem while you're doing that.


Honestly, even in vanilla the fact that the auto turrets are so accurate is a bit of a cheese factor. There is zero reason to ever use a turret yourself in a mission because you will never be as good as the AI firing them, and the AI flying the ship will never be as good as you.
If you think 4 laser hardpoints per gun turret break the game, than I'm wondering why you didn't have the guts to reply to Darksaber here (https://www.xwaupgrade.com/phpBB3/viewt ... =9&t=12057 )

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BattleDog
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Post by BattleDog » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:46 pm

Phoenix Leader wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:36 pm
Will T wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 am
Mark_Farlander wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:07 am
I just wish to say one thing about the YT-1300 Corellian transport: the doubled laser hardpoints in turret surely made Azzameen missions easier, but this also solved a consistency issue.
As far as I remember in the vanilla version of the game the turret fired 4 laser shots per second when linked to forward position, and only 2 laser shots per second in autofire mode.
Now the turret of the YT-1300 Corellian transport fires 4 laser shots per second regardless of the settings (linked to forward position, autofire mode or defensive fire mode).
So now it's more consistent.
That's not an inconsistency, that's a balancing measure.

The turret is faster firing forward, but you have to actually aim it. You have to fly at your target.

It's slower in autofire, but you don't have to aim, it can fire anywhere around you and it lets you evade return fire.

Without that trade off, there is literally no reason to not use autofire for everything you're attacking. It also means that attacking cap ships is trivially easy, because it's possible to fly in a way where you can hit them but they can't hit you. With four lasers per turret, you burn through them insanely fast so there isn't even time for other fighters to present a problem while you're doing that.


Honestly, even in vanilla the fact that the auto turrets are so accurate is a bit of a cheese factor. There is zero reason to ever use a turret yourself in a mission because you will never be as good as the AI firing them, and the AI flying the ship will never be as good as you.
If you think 4 laser hardpoints per gun turret break the game, than I'm wondering why you didn't have the guts to reply to Darksaber here (https://www.xwaupgrade.com/phpBB3/viewt ... =9&t=12057 )
Perhaps because at the time Darksaber's post represented a definitive answer from a senior member of the XWAU team?

Let's not tear strips off each other, hey? Let's just be constructive and helpful.

Aren't there other Opts like this too, like the Assault transport? Essentially TG modelled the ships with X number gun barrels and then added Y number of hardpoints. The game was then balanced for Y instead of X. The question now is whether the game should be re-balanced for X instead of Y. There's an argument for that, when you consider that the XWAU has changed a lot of other things. The size of the CORTs is an obvious one, especially the YT-2400, but there are other examples like the shrinking of the very large, and very fast, Planetary Fighter.
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Will T
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Post by Will T » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:04 pm

Phoenix Leader wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:36 pm


If you think 4 laser hardpoints per gun turret break the game, than I'm wondering why you didn't have the guts to reply to Darksaber here (https://www.xwaupgrade.com/phpBB3/viewt ... =9&t=12057 )
Um, excuse me?

'Didn't have the guts'?

That's a post from a year and a half ago. I don't remember ever seeing it. It was probably during a period when I wasn't as active on the boards. It's not a question of 'guts' for fuck's sake.
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Mark_Farlander
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Post by Mark_Farlander » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:07 pm

Will T wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 am
Mark_Farlander wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:07 am
I just wish to say one thing about the YT-1300 Corellian transport: the doubled laser hardpoints in turret surely made Azzameen missions easier, but this also solved a consistency issue.
As far as I remember in the vanilla version of the game the turret fired 4 laser shots per second when linked to forward position, and only 2 laser shots per second in autofire mode.
Now the turret of the YT-1300 Corellian transport fires 4 laser shots per second regardless of the settings (linked to forward position, autofire mode or defensive fire mode).
So now it's more consistent.
That's not an inconsistency, that's a balancing measure.

The turret is faster firing forward, but you have to actually aim it. You have to fly at your target.

It's slower in autofire, but you don't have to aim, it can fire anywhere around you and it lets you evade return fire.

Without that trade off, there is literally no reason to not use autofire for everything you're attacking. It also means that attacking cap ships is trivially easy, because it's possible to fly in a way where you can hit them but they can't hit you. With four lasers per turret, you burn through them insanely fast so there isn't even time for other fighters to present a problem while you're doing that.


Honestly, even in vanilla the fact that the auto turrets are so accurate is a bit of a cheese factor. There is zero reason to ever use a turret yourself in a mission because you will never be as good as the AI firing them, and the AI flying the ship will never be as good as you.
Have you tried YT-2000 Otana vs 12 Assault gunboats all at Top Ace AI?
I'm afraid the only way you have to destroy all of them would be to exploit the fact that they tend to break formation when hit.

As for cap ships... well, you can take down an ISD in an X-Wing in XWA because X-Wing Alliance is a fighter focused game.
I agree with you that we will need to have a more realistic version of X-Wing Alliance in the future where this is not possible.
And increasing the shield recharge rate of an ISD so that you cannot take it down in a fighter is a thing we can already do through Jeremy's shield recharge hook.
I don't judge tactics. The Battle is the best and only Judge.

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