XWAU Intaller paradigm

[sedenion]

Hi everyone,

Strange (but not so much) to come back here and discover what finally happened. Anyway, I am here to discuss about the future since I understand the project is now in a kind of "restructuration", and here is my suggestion: Replacing the "Executable installer" paradigm by an more flexible "Mod's installation" paradigm, where "mods" are kind of packages which can be installed/uninstalled either manually or using a software that manage "Mods".

To be honest, I make this suggestion first because I Am used to this paradigm for another game (DCS World) which is extremly active in term of "customization by users", and secondly because I precisely developed such "Mod Manager" software. The software I developped, however, currently implements only files adding/replacement with quite robust package dependencies and installation control features, but not file binary modifications needed for executable "patching" (but this can be done).
In this paradigm, users simply download the "Mod" they wants as package (usually a zip file), then use the manager software to install and uninstall packages, as they want, when they want. They are warned about conflicts or dependencies (for example; one should have mod X in order to have mod Y properly working), but can easily choose their own combination and test everything very quickly.
This also allow anybody to provide and update its own "Mod" in paralelle to others without explicitely requesting the permission and waiting to be included in the future new "big release" of a "ibig main installer"... It is also much more flexible for Mod-makers (developpers) to test and debug their mods, since they can apply and remove their customized/added file very quickly and easily using a "developer" mode using raw folder instead of zipped package file.

You can find the home page of the project of my own software on GitHub : https://github.com/sedenion/OpenModMan

[Ronin65]

I don't really see how this is a paradigm or an evolution to the installer that Darksaber used and it's Alternative that the XWAUP are using at present for there Effects and Dynamic Cockpit installers.

About 15 years ago XWAUP used to used a utility that well respected chap called Defiant developed called the X-Wing Install System or XIS, which was basically a "Mod Manager" it also used zip files with a changed extension called an *.Xmod, to package the craft for installation, basically what your describing above is that utility, but XIS could or can still also patch the exe.

This was then replaced with the XWAUP installers, using NSIS (Nullsoft Scriptable Installer System) which was a lot more advanced than the Xmods and more secure

Sorry but I don't see anything new to your utility that has already been developed in the past.

[sedenion]

I don't really see how this is a paradigm or an evolution to the installer that Darksaber used and it's Alternative that the XWAUP are using at present for there Effects and Dynamic Cockpit installers.

About 15 years ago XWAUP used to used a utility that well respected chap called Defiant developed called the X-Wing Install System or XIS, which was basically a "Mod Manager" it also used zip files with a changed extension called an *.Xmod, to package the craft for installation, basically what your describing above is that utility, but XIS could or can still also patch the exe.

This was then replaced with the XWAUP installers, using NSIS (Nullsoft Scriptable Installer System) which was a lot more advanced than the Xmods and more secure

Sorry but I don't see anything new to your utility that has already been developed in the past.

I never said I invent wheel... And, it is not about my utility, I presented it as an example and because it exists, is modern, open source and under GPL: it can be forked, and modified to suits specific purposes.

The problem with exe installer(s) is that when you want a particular mods setup, with some of this and not of that, you have to launch several install and/or uninstall, with each time a new entry within the Windows's software list, where - to me - such stuff have absolutly nothing to do... (all with potential side effects).
For example, at the current XWAU project stage, you have to first proceed to a big installation of the whole 1.6 XWAU setup, which require XWA original CDs to be manipulated (for the mother of god, why ?), then you have to install some addotionnal mods that partially overwrite the previous installation, and then, maybe install the very last ddraw DLL and hooks... Do you really feel this is rational ?

The EXE installer make a touch of "serious", but this is NOT convenient, especially where you have a complex environment with several creator, authors, with all their own workflow and rhythm... The centralization may be essential at some stage, but become a problem at another.

The "Mod Manager" paradigms advantages are the following:

- Separated update/upgrade by mods, no need to wait for a big "general realase" with another full uninstall/reinstall.

- Allows for users to pick exactly what mods he wants, then selecting exactling what setup it prefer, withou heavy install/uninstall process + Allow to quicly switch between several mods setups.

- The Vanilla Version of XWA still restorable at any time very quickly without modification by simply disabling all mods.

- Easy way for devs and creators to test and debug their mods.

- Easy way for a creator to make its mod available and installable quickly.

About security : An executable, binary file, opaque, is per definition LESS secure than a ZIP file (except if the ZIP file contain executable file). Once your Mod Manager utility is secure and robust, an open package format is the most secure thing you can have.

[Ronin65]

I'm not sure why you think the XWAUCPv1.6 has to be installed first, as I understand it you don't actually need it, the individual craft installers were developed before the big installer and can be installed one by one, the all-in-one installer i.e. the XWAUCP installers were developed to save time installing.

Remember over the years more craft have been made, installing each one by one could become tedious.

The CD check was to make sure the person installing owned the original discs, (remember this was before GOG or Steam) so you can tell your Mother of God this was the reason

[sedenion]

I'm not sure why you think the XWAUCPv1.6 has to be installed first, as I understand it you don't actually need it, the individual craft installers were developed before the big installer and can be installed one by one, the all-in-one installer i.e. the XWAUCP installers were developed to save time installing.

Remember over the years more craft have been made, installing each one by one could become tedious.

Okay, I have no more arguments, except that you can create one big package of 500MB like you create one big 500MB executable installer... What you done in one way can be done in the other way, plus the advantages I previously listed.

The CD check was to make sure the person installing owned the original discs

First, I don't think XWAU setup checks the CD authenticity, but takes some data then, does something I don't know with it. Secondly, why XWAU setup have to verify if I realy own XWA ? To legaly apply the No-CD patch ? Please...

[Ronin65]

You are an argumentative person I can't be bothered with people like you, your right, I'm wrong, you won something for once Le Petit Caporal

[sedenion]

You are an argumentative person I can't be bothered with people like you, your right, I'm wrong, you won something for once Le Petit Caporal

To be honest, my feeling is that people in this forum appear to be quite on the defensive with a strange ambiance, and I tend to adapt my responses. English is not my mother tongue, maybe this is "jamming" my perceptions... I have nothing to win and nothing to sell, I could pass my way and if I am really not welcom, I will pass my way.

[Jaeven]

You are an argumentative person I can't be bothered with people like you, your right, I'm wrong, you won something for once Le Petit Caporal

To be honest, my feeling is that people in this forum appear to be quite on the defensive with a strange ambiance, and I tend to adapt my responses. English is not my mother tongue, maybe this is "jamming" my perceptions... I have nothing to win and nothing to sell, I could pass my way and if I am really not welcom, I will pass my way.

You're welcome here and so are your suggestions. Don't let one toxic person ruin your stay on this forum

[Ronin65]

Toxic? thanks, what's toxic about what I wrote, I was just pointing out that what he's making has already been done years ago, what so toxic about that?

It's his attitude that's toxic, English might not be his first language, but he seem to write and understand it fine, so please don't use that old excuse, he'll be shouting "think of the children, the poor children" next or words to that effect.

[Vince T]

That's about enough from you, Ronin. If you have nothing of value to contribute to this thread, leave him be, take a walk outside.

[sedenion]

Toxic? thanks, what's toxic about what I wrote, I was just pointing out that what he's making has already been done years ago, what so toxic about that?

Indeed I have no problem with that, your objections was legit... the problem was probably more in the "why" and the "how" than in the "what".

It's his attitude that's toxic, English might not be his first language, but he seem to write and understand it fine

This does not mean I am as comfortable with it than with French, for example, to decode and detect some implicit or vocabulary subtleties. However, it seem you were right, I am pretty good, but: I was not sure of that 1 hour ago, and I still use Google Translate as backup to verify what I wrote realy mean something for shakespeare...

so please don't use that old excuse, he'll be shouting "think of the children, the poor children" next or words to that effect.

I simply pointed out that I may have misinterpreted your behavior, leading me to some unsuited responses. But all is in order now, I now know that I was actually perfectly well interpreting your intents and what were happening in your mind.

Pleasure to meet you.

[Tondenelee]

Wow! First post on these forums, I come across this thread and you guys are unbelievable, the way this site is managed? I not impressed with the either the Admins or it's Users!

I signed up, as I was interested in getting back into this game, after reading this and other threads though, I may not bother.

What's the average age of the children on here? You should be ashamed of your selves, grow up guys!

[AngeI]

Tondenelee I would not take the two people having a minor internet argument as representative of this community or the work of the XWAUP team members in making this game a great experience to replay

[JeremyaFr]

Hi everyone,

Strange (but not so much) to come back here and discover what finally happened. Anyway, I am here to discuss about the future since I understand the project is now in a kind of "restructuration", and here is my suggestion: Replacing the "Executable installer" paradigm by an more flexible "Mod's installation" paradigm, where "mods" are kind of packages which can be installed/uninstalled either manually or using a software that manage "Mods".

To be honest, I make this suggestion first because I Am used to this paradigm for another game (DCS World) which is extremly active in term of "customization by users", and secondly because I precisely developed such "Mod Manager" software. The software I developped, however, currently implements only files adding/replacement with quite robust package dependencies and installation control features, but not file binary modifications needed for executable "patching" (but this can be done).
In this paradigm, users simply download the "Mod" they wants as package (usually a zip file), then use the manager software to install and uninstall packages, as they want, when they want. They are warned about conflicts or dependencies (for example; one should have mod X in order to have mod Y properly working), but can easily choose their own combination and test everything very quickly.
This also allow anybody to provide and update its own "Mod" in paralelle to others without explicitely requesting the permission and waiting to be included in the future new "big release" of a "ibig main installer"... It is also much more flexible for Mod-makers (developpers) to test and debug their mods, since they can apply and remove their customized/added file very quickly and easily using a "developer" mode using raw folder instead of zipped package file.

You can find the home page of the project of my own software on GitHub : https://github.com/sedenion/OpenModMan

Hello sedenion,
A mod manager is a good idea. Thank you for the suggestion.
This would make easier to discover, download and install mods, from XWAU and/or other sources. So I think it is something to consider for the future.
Regarding the format of mod packages, I would prefer exe packages over zip packages. The exe installers used for XWA are nsis installers. They can be opened with 7-zip manually or by code with a 7-zip library. The advantage of exe is that it can be downloaded and installed directly or with a mod manager. I think a mod manager should be able to open mod as zip files and mod as exe files.

[BattleDog]

First, I don't think XWAU setup checks the CD authenticity, but takes some data then, does something I don't know with it. Secondly, why XWAU setup have to verify if I realy own XWA ? To legaly apply the No-CD patch ? Please...

So I wanted to just address this point directly because I've been involved in a few mod projects over the years. Basically, yes, the XWAU installer checks you have the CD in the drive if you have the CD version because it's going to crack the game for you. At the end of the day XWAU is a 3rd party mod of a currently unsupported but still commercially sold game.

We've been allowed to quietly mod over the years without interference but modding was never endorsed by Lucasarts and nor is it by Disney. So, to demonstrate good faith should Disney ever come knocking the installer checks you have the actual game. The XWAU isn't the only project that does this, Open Morrowind does basically the same thing. On the other hand, Morroblivion (the conversion of Morrowind as a mod to work with Oblivion) didn't originally and basically got shut down until they agreed to remake everything.

Regarding your arguments in favour of a mod installer - XIS has already been referenced and was used for some packages in the past for exactly the reasons you cite. It just never quite took off though, partly because some members of the community preferred exe installers and partly because Defiant stopped developing it. I agree that an exe is opaque and potentially insecure if people start getting their mod packaged from another site there's a possibility they could pick up a virus, there's also the possibility that someone could write an installer that deliberately borks the game - as happened recently.

Mod managers do get around that but at the end of the day you're shifting responsibility from the package installer to the mod manager because unlike more modern games there's no way to "manually" install a mod without manually patching the exe file.

There have been other attempts at this in the past, MXvTEd has a function to apply ship stats using some sort of "hip" file if I recall but people stopped using it years ago. For a number of reasons, possibly including medium age of the player base, we keep coming back to exe installers.

[sedenion]

The exe installers used for XWA are nsis installers. They can be opened with 7-zip manually or by code with a 7-zip library. The advantage of exe is that it can be downloaded and installed directly or with a mod manager. I think a mod manager should be able to open mod as zip files and mod as exe files.

Ok, so you propose a kind of hybrid mechanism. Technically possible, but in this case, things become a bit strange and complex in term of file/software integrity and install/uninstall management. In this case, it is (I think) better to simply let two versions of the same mod : One on exe, the other as "package" , then, explaining user that mixing exe and packages is not a good practice.

My "problem" (this is not really a problem) with the Executable paradigms is that this make the whole thing a lot less flexible and more centralized, and even if NSIS is quite simple to use, this is not something everybody is mastering. What I see, is that the "NSIS" paradigm allow community to keep a strict control on released mods by monopolysing the "setup creation"... Maybe this is what you want, this is your right, I simply point out that, this could run another way.

Mod managers do get around that but at the end of the day you're shifting responsibility from the package installer to the mod manager because unlike more modern games there's no way to "manually" install a mod without manually patching the exe file.

That's right, that is the specificity of XWA, the Mod Manager must implements a way to manage and patch the exe file (this could be done), and, patching executable cannot be done easily manually (however it is possible). Notice that the Mod manager can be a simple "executive" patcher, that follow a "script" embeded in the package (like the NSIS does currently, I suppose).

To be honnest, I allready though about all that details, and I have lot of ideas, depending what one want or prefer...

At this stage, to me, the most important thing to consider is : Does the project members want to keep the strict control of the project, by providing a strictly verified, controlled content, with a pure vertical management - and in this case, the unified executable installer is the best and cleaner way to do thing, either for project maintainers and users - ; or, are they open to... open the project, making it more flexible and accessible, where mod creators are more independents, while making the life easier for users.

I think you understoud that I am more of an open way to do things, and I think this can positively impact the project.

[DTM]

Sedenion, I am happy with your proposals. Certainly there are many ways to create a Mod Manager. How to do it, are just technicalities. It is the basic idea that it is good. I believe that the XWAU team is already moving in a direction similar to what said by Sedenion. I can say that a new mega patch has been under construction for a few months. You will soon see. Perhaps it will not be perfect immediately, but it will lay the foundations for a future of XWA more similar to that proposed by Sedenion.

[darklord]

Honestly, I find the best mod mangers have the ability to download, install, and update mods themselves without the user having to go to the XWAU website and seeing what the latest updates are. (e.g Freespace 2 Open's Knossos platform) XWAU has never had anything like that. Something like that I would see as an actual improvement. Not to just users but developers distributing their work, or even works in progress. Otherwise another XIS style system may be somewhat useful, but not enough to go through the effort of revamping everything XWAU has done. Without such a true online management element, I don't see the point.

[korekwerner]

the new simple mod manager is sure to help people like me.
I do not hide that I would like to share my work with everyone, but when I think about questions from green users, unfortunately I refuse to give the world what I have done and what I am still working on.
That is why I admire you for having so much patience. I'm too old to be a helpdesk.
Thank you for what you are doing.

[DTM]

the new simple mod manager is sure to help people like me.
I do not hide that I would like to share my work with everyone, but when I think about questions from green users, unfortunately I refuse to give the world what I have done and what I am still working on.
That is why I admire you for having so much patience. I'm too old to be a helpdesk.
Thank you for what you are doing.

One of the goals of XWAU is to help talented people like you, to share your work with others.

Even any player who creates his own Shipset with some original missions, must have the possibility to share his adventures with others, in a simple way. Unfortunately the word "simple" is not friendly with the word "automatic". So at the moment the XWAU is working to create a sharing system that is not automatic, but which requires some mandatory steps: deciding what to download, deciding where to install, deciding if today I want to play with Shipset A, or with Shipset B.


Pay attention: we are no longer talking about the XWAUP, but the XWAU. As VinceT recently said, this is no longer a "Project". A project has an end. The XWAU does not have a goal that ends with an end. The goal is to upgrade and share, and these will never end.

[Trevor]

Pay attention: we are no longer talking about the XWAUP, but the XWAU. As VinceT recently said, this is no longer a "Project". A project has an end. The XWAU does not have a goal that ends with an end. The goal is to upgrade and share, and these will never end.

I didn't realize the P was dropped from XWAUP (to which I say in my head X-Wing Alliance UP)
wow, I just noticed that the forum logo changed...

Trev

[korekwerner]

@DTM When I read your words, it's as if I saw the words I wrote over a year ago on the forum.
I am very pleasantly surprised and what you wrote makes my goal very much in line with what you wrote.
Thank you very much.
I am currently testing more things for XWA and I hope we can figure out a way to get our projects together.
We are on the right track, we also need Sedenion's skills .
Of course, we have time. I don't want to be helpdesk for others when I share things . I don't have patient for this.
I'm sure I'll need help with the installers. I have no idea how to make them.

Regards
KW